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Iran Election June 09

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  • Originally posted by Castellano View Post
    That attempt to draw moral equivalence won't wash. Is not even close. And it is actually outrageous to suggest otherwise.

    If some guy in al-Jihad can speculate that Netanyahu preferred A-jad to be handpicked by the regime (which I don't doubt), so I can also speculate that the puppet masters who bankroll that guy and the rest of the edifice of lies of al-Jihad are devastated that the Iranian people have risen up against tyranny, as in fact are quite some people in the Middle East who are not from Israel nor Iran.

    It is a certainty that Netanyahu would prefer a free Iran, and that is a problem for all those non-Iranians who seem quite ready to fight Israel to the last Iranian.

    So let's tell it like it is, no Bigfella?
    Lets indeed Castellano. First, lets burn down the straw man you started with. There was no attempt at 'moral equivalence'. Jorg Haider was an extremist, so was Pol Pot. That does not make them identical or morally equivalent, just possessed of extreme opinions/policies.

    Likud thrives on the perception of threat to the Israeli state. Absent that it exists on the fringe of Israeli politics. It is a profoundly corrupt organization founded by terrorists & fascist sympathizers that allies itself with the nastiest sorts of extremists. A-jad & Hamas are a gift to the likes of Netanyahu because they provide him with distractions or standing excuses.

    As for a free Iran, that wasn't up for grabs at the start of this election & it isn't now. I wish it was. I believe it will be one day, but today isn't it. Pretending otherwise is about rhetorical posturing - usually in an attempt to beat someone else over the head (read Krauthammer's POS diatribe for an example).

    That is very much how it is.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 21 Jun 09,, 13:12.
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    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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    • One can only imagine what would have happened if the day after Benjamin Netanyahu's speech, that same silent and paralyzed majority that allegedly wants two states had taken to the streets to demand an end to the occupation.
      Is very easy.

      Should Israel end the so called "occupation" (that consequence not cause, of Arab violence against the Jewish state), say tomorrow, the West Bank turns into Hamastán II in less that 24 hours.

      And what happens then?
      L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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      • Or if they demanded that we say yes to the Arab peace initiative. What a boost that would have been, a genuine wind of change on whose strength Barack Obama, Netanyahu, Mahmoud Abbas and Bashar Assad could move forward together.
        This author clearly takes LSD for breakfast and thinks are cornflakes.
        L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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        • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          Lets indeed Castellano. First, lets burn down the straw man you started with. There was no attempt at 'moral equivalence'. Jorg Haider was an extremist, so was Pol Pot. That does not make them identical or morally equivalent, just possessed of extreme opinions/policies.
          Nope. You explicictly linked them when you said "extremism feeds extremism".

          Likud thrives on the perception of threat to the Israeli state. Absent that it exists on the fringe of Israeli politics.
          Yes. But is not a"perception". Is thousands and thousands of civilians brutally killed in thousands and thousands of terrorist attacks. 4 major Wars. Several more lesser scale conflicts. And every single one of them started from outside.

          It is a profoundly corrupt organization founded by terrorists & fascist sympathizers that allies itself with the nastiest sorts of extremists.
          No. Is a democratic party, which has proved its democratic credentials over and over in due democratic process. And the rest of what you say is either false or grossly exaggerated.

          I challenge you to name a single political party in the Middle East outside Israel with better democratic credentials. That should be fun.

          A-jad & Hamas are a gift to the likes of Netanyahu because they provide him with distractions or standing excuses.
          Let's have something clear now, talking of strawmans, I personally think B Netanyahu is probably a mediocre man. Unlike his brother. And indeed, he wouldn't be in power without the savage Palestinian terrorism.

          That said, if you believe Netanyahu is just exhilarated with the existence of Hamas or A-jad, well, that proves that you would do absolutely anything to perpetuate your multicultural fantasies and entertain frivolous moral equivalence misconceptions.

          As for a free Iran, that wasn't up for grabs at the start of this election & it isn't now. I wish it was. I believe it will be one day, but today isn't it. Pretending otherwise is about rhetorical posturing - usually in an attempt to beat someone else over the head (read Krauthammer's POS diatribe for an example).

          That is very much how it is.

          The regime can fall.
          L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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          • BBC is reporting that Rafsanjani's family members have been arrested.


            Iran Rafsanjani Family Members Arrested Says State Media-BBC


            What does this mean for the power struggle? Can any Iran watchers enlighten us?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tinymarae View Post
              BBC is reporting that Rafsanjani's family members have been arrested.


              Iran Rafsanjani Family Members Arrested Says State Media-BBC


              What does this mean for the power struggle? Can any Iran watchers enlighten us?
              I can offer this:

              We don't know yet how aggressively Iran's clerical overlord, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and Ahmadinejad rigged the balloting. Ahmadinejad remains popular in small town Iran and among the urban poor. His constant attacks on the corrupt revolutionary elite--especially the fabulously wealthy cleric Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who probably bankrolled Mousavi's run for the presidency--resonate, even among highly Westernized Iranians who align themselves with the "pragmatic" Rafsanjani.

              ....


              Khamenei, who worked with and struggled against Mousavi for a decade, knows the former prime minister politically as well as anyone. The supreme leader knows that what Mousavi lacks in charisma he has always made up in doggedness. That Khamenei baited the candidate, and so carelessly denied millions of Iranians the illusion that their votes mattered, shows how insular and insecure Khamenei, a politicized cleric of some intellectual sensitivity, has become in his august office. Whatever Mousavi has inside, it was enough to scare Khamenei profoundly, and not just because the supreme leader didn't want to hand a victory to Rafsanjani, Khamenei's brother-in-arms-turned-foe. Without Rafsanjani, the reformist cleric Mohammed Khatami would never have risen to the presidency, which he held from 1997 to 2005. Once Khatami was in office, both Khamenei and Rafsanjani worked to gut the reform movement that enveloped him. Regardless of their deep personal differences, Khamenei and Rafsanjani no doubt could work together in the future to gut Mousavi if the Machiavellian Rafsanjani felt so inclined.

              For now, though, Rafsanjani is backing Mousavi for his own survival. Ahmadinejad dreams of downing Rafsanjani and his entire spoiled clan. For the poor-boy former Revolutionary Guardsman who fought in the Iran-Iraq war, Rafsanjani is the quintessential target of the anti-mullah jokes that are a staple of life among Iran's poor. Ahmadinejad also undoubtedly remembers that Rafsanjani, for good reason, once tried to abolish Ahmadinejad's beloved Revolutionary Guard by folding them into Iran's regular army.

              Similarly, Khamenei backs Ahmadinejad overwhelmingly for one reason: fear of Khatami. (Hurting Rafsanjani is an ancillary pleasure.) Not Khatami personally, but what he represented between 1997, when he won the presidency by a landslide, and 2000, when the regime fully recovered its authoritarian composure. Although certain American analysts like to belittle the historic importance of Khatami ("Really just Khamenei with a smile"), the movement behind him terrified Khamenei and the Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran).

              PREVIEW: The June 12 Revolution
              L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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              • Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                Nope. You explicictly linked them when you said "extremism feeds extremism".



                Yes. But is not a"perception". Is thousands and thousands of civilians brutally killed in thousands and thousands of terrorist attacks. 4 major Wars. Several more lesser scale conflicts. And every single one of them started from outside.



                No. Is a democratic party, which has proved its democratic credentials over and over in due democratic process. And the rest of what you say is either false or grossly exaggerated.

                I challenge you to name a single political party in the Middle East outside Israel with better democratic credentials. That should be fun.



                Let's have something clear now, talking of strawmans, I personally think B Netanyahu is probably a mediocre man. Unlike his brother. And indeed, he wouldn't be in power without the savage Palestinian terrorism.

                That said, if you believe Netanyahu is just exhilarated with the existence of Hamas or A-jad, well, that proves that you would do absolutely anything to perpetuate your multicultural fantasies and entertain frivolous moral equivalence misconceptions.




                The regime can fall.
                The only fantasies here are yours Castellano. Fantasies about what I said, fantasies about what I meant & fantasies about Likud. Pure propaganda.
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                • Yeah right.

                  That's why is the second time I read it from you. The despicable moral equivalence attempt I mean, between a guy like A-jad, and a member of the present democratic government of Israel.
                  L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                  • Originally posted by Oscar View Post
                    Its sad but I would think that the majority of Iranians still support Ahmadinedjad.
                    I'm afraid I still stand by my comment. I have looked at Khatami's past results at the presidential elections of 1997 and 2001 and he enjoyed pretty much the same results in the first round (to be frank it was an even bigger victory) as the ones credited to Ahmadinedjad this year.

                    And Khamenei was already in charge at the time.

                    But contrary to what I said, it has its importance. That means there's a silent majority that still supports the regime.

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                    • Originally posted by Oscar View Post
                      I'm afraid I still stand by my comment. I have looked at Khatami's past results at the presidential elections of 1997 and 2001 and he enjoyed pretty much the same results in the first round (to be frank it was an even bigger victory) as the ones credited to Ahmadinedjad this year.

                      And Khamenei was already in charge at the time.

                      But contrary to what I said, it has its importance. That means there's a silent majority that still supports the regime.
                      Maybe you are disregarding the effects of the recent events on the silent majority.
                      I mean , even if they supported Ahmadinedjad before , is it still the case now ?

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                      • Originally posted by gabriel View Post
                        Maybe you are disregarding the effects of the recent events on the silent majority.
                        I mean , even if they supported Ahmadinedjad before , is it still the case now ?
                        Maybe they don't agree with the way the governement handled the protests...But its still their votes...And they won't join the opponents to overthrow the regime because of that.
                        Last edited by Oscar; 21 Jun 09,, 17:02.

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                        • Originally posted by Oscar View Post
                          I'm afraid I still stand by my comment. I have looked at Khatami's past results at the presidential elections of 1997 and 2001 and he enjoyed pretty much the same results in the first round (to be frank it was an even bigger victory) as the ones credited to Ahmadinedjad this year.

                          And Khamenei was already in charge at the time.

                          But contrary to what I said, it has its importance. That means there's a silent majority that still supports the regime.
                          You seriously want to compare Khatami's support to Amj's. Seriously? I know people who have been to Iran, and the people there are fairly moderate who want reform of the system. It's why Khatami got such he votes, but unfortunately his movement was clamped down, and it didn't exactly lead to better relations with the West either.

                          So as a result what happened is a lot of young people became disillusioned and didn't vote at all and so Amj was elected. Now, let's make this clear too, Amj "barely" won last, and the Iranian economy is now completely in shambles. And you think with the Iranian economy in shambles, huge amounts of the population upset because they have less personal freedoms, that the people are going to give the guy more support than they did last time. Or do you think it's possible that some of those who did not vote last time, will vote this time.

                          And really that the Iranians are going to really want a hardliner president, when they have an American president finally willing to deal with them?

                          Please. It's possible Khomeni is running scared because now there's an American President actually willing to deal with Iran, when there wasn't when Khatami was in power.

                          Amj, was never as popular as Khatami.

                          And they won't join the opponents to overthrow the regime because of that.
                          Who says the regime will be overthrown? My suspicican is that eventually Khomeni will gotten rid off and there will be a new more practical Supreme Leader. Reforms will happen, and there will be new elections, but the Revolation won't be completely over thrown.
                          Last edited by beka; 21 Jun 09,, 17:48.

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                          • Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                            It's undoubtely the regime behind the bombs (I heard of more than one) What do you think Oscar?
                            Just like rigging election so clumsy this bomb attack also ended up being a hoax.

                            The reports from state controlled media indicated that a suicide bomber exploded himself in "SHOES KEEPING ROOM" of the mausoleum and the dead is the bomber himself and the injured was the attendant of the room. No one else was killed or injured since the 2 were the only people present.

                            The most humorous part is the picture they published in one news paper showing just one small window glass is shattered and glass pieces fallen right by the door not blown away which will happen in any blast inside confinement of a room.
                            I think he must be the most stupid suicide bomber in the history, go blow yourself up to harm some shoes.:D
                            I applaud him for being the genuine "Shoe Bomber" not the other guy in US.

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                            • Originally posted by Oscar View Post
                              They are perfectly capable of doing that. On the other hand that would be close to a blasphemy for them...I mean its Khomeyni.

                              Or this is the work of the most extreme elements of the contestation. Think People's Mujahdjeen or any other marxist group.
                              Khomeini is dead in regime's book.
                              Heck they don't even pretend to be religious any more, they're acting like a full blown tyranny with an iron fist.
                              Yesterday they managed to fill up the entire hospitals of Tehran with injured to a point where 27 embassies of other nations opened doors to take in and treat injured. Mid afternoon (Tehran time) Canadian Embassy plead to Tehranians asking for volunteer Doctors and nurses.

                              I think the majority of world need to learn 1 or 2 from Canada, always standing on the side of who is right.

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                              • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                                JAD,

                                I don't think there is much secret about Netanyahu being pleased about this. Extremism feeds on extremism - A-jad & Hamas are the best freinds Likud has.
                                It was a tongue-in-cheek question? A kinder and gentler Iran still committed to "peaceful" production of fissionable material, would make his call to use force against Iran more difficult to sell.
                                To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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