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  • Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    In Iraq, Constitutionally, no law can contradict Islam (Section 1, Article 2); just as it is with Afghanistan (Chapter 1, Article 3).
    Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    Sharia Law is not a slogan, it is a dangerous outcome; and when it explodes, the US needs to be as far away as it can be.
    And in Egypt the leader that introduced that clause was Sadat in the 70s. That sharia would be a major source of inspiration. Been like that for over thirty years now in Egypt. His rule saw a window of liberalisation which closed following his assasination. But he was the one that released the MB from jail. This was a critical turning point in their development as they let go of their previously more violent stance. This move created a number of smaller spinoffs that wanted to continue the armed resistance but the MB at this point was no longer in the fray.

    So I ask again where is the scope here for 'further introduction' of Sharia. The public view the MB as less corrupt who established themselves in schools, health care & social services. Areas where the govt wasn't very helpful. That is the reason private efforts had to be made and they were efficient at it. This is how they grew their support base. Not very different to what Christian missionaries have done the world over.

    This is why i continue to view their statements as slogans.

    Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    The US needs to quit daydreaming about the development of an allied democracy that genuinely wants to establish a positive relationship with the US and join the 21st Century.
    Promotion of democracy IS fighting terrorism which is a national security imperative. This policy dates back to Bush. Rightly or wrongly, the determination was made at the time that terrorism is fueled by a lack of democracy.

    Commencement Address at the University of South Carolina in Columbia | May 9, 2003

    The present administration is just continuing with the same policy and its much easier to see with the case of the NGOs than enforced at gunpoint as in Iraq or Afghanistan. This used to be a black joke earlier, that if regimes did not behave then the US would come over and 'spread democracy'.

    Its not so funny in the present Egyptian context.

    The US needs to improve its reputation in the middle east, to be seen as a credible supporter of democracy. There are just too many examples of double standards at play that affect that perception. So i perceive the NGO effort as a step in a positive direction.

    Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I don't believe that the talk of Sharia Law is merely a slogan. I really believe that Islam with be integrated into the law such that one day, a fanatic will come to power and raise the religion to a level similar to Iran's government.
    Where is the need for a fanatic to take over when the Islamists are already in office. Once in office they lose their radicalism and become more domesticated. Radicalism is directly proportional to the degree of authoritarianism experienced. There may be fringe groups but they will lose their legitimacy in the current environment.

    If anything, i think a coup by the army is more likely. They're the only group with the record, experience & power to pull it off.

    As for the comparison with Iran, Egypt's was never a mullah led revolution. The Shah alienated the clerics whereas in Egypt they were co-opted to the point they were seen as an extension of the state. This is the case in a number of other gulf countries as well.

    So how can these mullahs now or later insert themselves into the mix and direct things as they did in Iran. Besides there is no outstanding debate in Egypt like there was in Iran about whether clerics should be in charge.

    Another issue i've been thinking about is the possibility of increased sectarianism. With Islamists in office its possible that more radical elements can try to mess with Copts in the hope those in office will protect their backs. I can see the liberals going absolutely nuts over this. Should it happen it has to be viewed as just opportunistic politics at play rather than some hidden agenda to cleanse Egypt of Copts.

    Because Copts have a longer history in Egypt than the Muslims do. Copts are a sizeable minority making up 10% of the population. The sectarian divide between the two communities isn't as stark as it is in say Iraq or Afghanistan, Lebanon or Syria.

    This will be one of a number of tests the new regime will face in implementing the rule of law.

    The source for this idea comes from developments in my own country over the years and its taken me a long time to see it in this manner.

    Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    It really doesn't matter; but in reality, more of the Iranians really didn't care for Americans to start with --- they just exercised good manners. When Islam (via the Ayatollah) took control, it was as if all the pent-up emotions were released all at once.
    It does matter, if you're going to be drawing comparisons with Iran.

    Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
    Sharia Law is not a slogan, it is a dangerous outcome; and when it explodes, the US needs to be as far away as it can be.
    Iran blew up, Egypt in comparison merely popped. That too in copycat fashion after Tunisia.

    There was a lot of pressure building up in Iran and had been for many years. This is where the potential for an explosion comes from.

    Can you show similar in Egypt ? then do so but otherwise your concern is unfounded. I've seen this narrative often, fears are raised but rarely with any sound basis other than easy generalisations.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 May 12,, 15:50.

    Comment


    • Double Edge, et al,

      There is nothing yet, that shows you are wrong. I advocate for being prepared and divorcing the US from further involvement.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      ... ... ...

      Can you show similar in Egypt ? then do so but otherwise your concern is unfounded. I've seen this narrative often, fears are raised but rarely with any sound basis other than easy generalisations.
      (COMMENT)

      I bend to your argument. It can't be proven wrong until the adverse event occurs. You are probably correct, in that there is no cause for alarm. I leave with these quotes:

      Voting in Egypt as "Holy War" -- Its Only Value, to Empower Sharia
      by Raymond Ibrahim May 22, 2012]

      If the non-Islamic candidates win, it will only be "by cheating," at which point "the Islamist organizations" will resort to "armed action" and such presidents will suffer the same fate as Anwar Sadat [assassination].

      Despite the fact that some in the West portray Islam and democracy as being perfectly compatible, evidence continues to emerge that many countries in the Middle East, democracy and elections are various means to one end: the establishment of a decidedly undemocratic form of law—Islamic, or Sharia Law.

      An Egyptian cleric, Dr. Talat Zahran, proclaimed that it is "obligatory to cheat at elections, a beautiful thing" -- meaning that voting is a tool, an instrument, the only value of which is to empower Sharia.

      Another cleric, Hazim Shuman, who has his own TV program, issued a fatwa that likened voting for Islamist candidates to a "jihad," or a holy war, adding that paradise awaits whoever is "martyred" during the electoral campaign.
      SOURCE: Voting in Egypt as "Holy War": Its Only Value, to Empower Sharia :: Gatestone Institute
      -- AND --
      Originally posted by Egypt presidential hopeful wants Sharia law-based constitution
      Monday, May 14th 2012
      Cairo, May 14 (IANS/RIA Novosti) Egypt's constitution should be based on the Quran and the Islamic Sharia law, presidential candidate from the Muslim Brotherhood Mohamed Morsi said.

      "The Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal," Morsi said in an election speech to Cairo University students.

      Today Egypt was close as never before to the triumph of Islam at all state levels, he said.

      "Today, we can establish Sharia law because our nation will acquire well-being only with Islam and Sharia. The Muslim Brothers and the Freedom and Justice Party will be the conductors of these goals," he said.

      SOURCE: http://india.nydailynews.com/busines...d-constitution
      Once I pass-on my credentials (waiting for an e-mail address to answer a challenge), I will be leaving WAB. I want to extend my appreciation for your discussions. I have found them quite valuable and you quite patient in your descriptive analysis.

      Many Thanks...

      Most Respectfully,
      R
      e-mail: Rocco Rosano roccorosano@yahoo.com
      Last edited by RoccoR; 22 May 12,, 17:35.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
        I bend to your argument.
        Bend is not good. To straighten is better

        Originally posted by RoccoR View Post
        Once I pass-on my credentials (waiting for an e-mail address to answer a challenge), I will be leaving WAB. I want to extend my appreciation for your discussions. I have found them quite valuable and you quite patient in your descriptive analysis.
        Would say the same, discussing these affairs with someone of your experience has been challenging & rewarding.

        Prefer you remain with WAB :)

        If you really are who you claim to be then you should pass any test with flying colours

        Re: the gatestone article by Raymond Ibrahim. Wiki tells me he is a Copt. If ever there are any sectarian issues, he will be shouting from the rooftops about it. I understand where he is coming from but would be reserved in what i took from it.

        Would highly recommend reading relevant chapters from the book 'Sharia Incorporated' from Leiden Uni.

        Despite the fact that some in the West portray Islam and democracy as being perfectly compatible, evidence continues to emerge that many countries in the Middle East, democracy and elections are various means to one end: the establishment of a decidedly undemocratic form of law—Islamic, or Sharia Law.
        ‘In France I saw Islam but no Muslims; in Cairo I see Muslims but no Islam.’ --Azharite, Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905)

        Abduh a later pioneer in the area of modernisation of the sharia, who upon his visit to France came to the conclusion that modern European societies had created a social order that was much closer to the Quranic ideals than Muslim societies had achieved thus far.

        Similarly, according to Al-Wafd, last Friday, May 18th, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of if not the most authoritative clerics in the Islamic world, "called on all Egyptians to vote for one of the Islamist candidates." He specifically named the three Islamists, Muhammad Mursi (candidate of the Salafist party), Abd al-Mun'im Abu al-Futuh (candidate of the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing), and Muhammad al-Salim al-Awwa. Qaradawi described them as "best for Egypt" because they will "apply the Islamic Sharia and achieve justice."
        Mursi is the MB's replacement candidate after Shater was disqualified.

        Futouh as we know is ex-MB and is running as an independent.

        Dunno who the third candidate is.

        Further, during his Friday sermon, Qaradawi said that it is "mandatory for every Egyptian to go and vote for the presidential elections," calling it a form of "obligatory testimony" on behalf of Islam, and quoting Koran 2:283 as proof: "and do not conceal testimony, and whoever conceals it, his heart is surely sinful; and Allah knows what you do."
        Good, then there will be a broad turnout

        Sheikh Osama Qassim, however, a member of Egypt's notorious Islamic Jihad, which also seeks to install Sharia law, focused on the non-Islamist candidates—he specifically named Ahmed Shafiq and Amr Mussa—saying that if they win the presidential elections, it will only be "by cheating," at which point "the Islamist organizations" will resort to "armed action" [code for Jihad], adding that such presidents will suffer the same fate of Anwar Sadat [assassination], but that this time, the struggle will see "the Islamists achieve complete domination" in Egypt.
        The presidential elections and how fair & free they are will be critical here. There should be no controversies tho i expect the losing candidates will try their luck here.

        I hope Egypt will take the efforts to make sure it will be the most transparent election they have ever had. The earlier parliamentary elections were undisputed and open. If there are disputes there should be fora where such can be contested.

        Re:the other article

        Egypt's constitution should be based on the Quran and the Islamic Sharia law, presidential candidate from the Muslim Brotherhood Mohamed Morsi said.
        The existing one already is. That Egypt would toss out the existing constitution wholesale and start on a blank sheet seems a stretch to me. However civil law & penal law are not sharia based but they already comply with Sharia.

        This is Mursi just posturing.

        "The Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal," Morsi said in an election speech to Cairo University students.
        KSA is the only muslim country that says the Quran is their constitution. And consequently do not have a consitution. Its just a basic ordinance.

        I highly doubt Mursi, should he win will forego drafting a consitution and follow the Saudi model.

        He does not have a say in whether the constitution gets drafted or not, in the first place.

        "Today, we can establish Sharia law because our nation will acquire well-being only with Islam and Sharia. The Muslim Brothers and the Freedom and Justice Party will be the conductors of these goals," he said.
        Saying what any politician would say.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 22 May 12,, 20:42.

        Comment


        • The first round of the presidential elections concluded last week. The turnout for the first phase was only 46%. In the parliamentary elections held earlier it was 57%.

          There are two front runners, Mursi (MB) & Shafeeq (Mubarak era).

          Mursi campaigns on the religious front, Shafeeq campaigns on stabiity and he got enough votes to be a contender.

          This outcome has been a letdown for the Egyptians because the two do not inspire much confidence. Mursi is uncharismatic & the other made a mess of the national airline when he was minister for civil aviation. For him to win would be a bad irony as he was appointed PM by Mubarak in response to the protests. He served a total of 33 days.

          Unrest is feared if either wins.

          If Mursi wins, will there be a coup.

          If Shafeeq wins, will the opposition make charges of vote rigging & run to the street and start more protests. It also brings into question the meaning of the revolution.

          The election is scheduled for mid June.

          Tense times ahead.

          Carter was one of four international monitors present during these elections, his group was barred access at some points and only got their clearances late so they cannot make any critical comments on how the election was held. But they were present when the counting was done and had visited a few booths. They did not see any evidence of any candidate being singled out or helped. Though there are a few reports of irregularities. It is essential that the next & final round be as transparent as possible.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 31 May 12,, 17:57.

          Comment


          • Here is one answer from a CSMonitor interview that President Abdullah Gul of Turkey had to say about Egypt..

            Is Turkey’s system, in which a Muslim-oriented party governs within a secular framework, a template for Egypt and the other liberated Arab states as they put together their constitutions?

            Gul: What is unfortunate for the Arab and Maghreb countries is that their interpretation of secularism has been based on the French model, which is a “Jacobin” model of imposing a kind of irreligiousness.

            When you speak of secularism to Muslim communities of the region, it is misunderstood because of this French implication. In practice, the implementation of secularism in the Arab and Maghreb countries has meant fighting against Islam in the name of secularism. So, we have to understand this sensitivity.

            On the other hand, if you use the Anglo-Saxon interpretation of secularism, as practiced in the United States or the United Kingdom, it is something that people should feel comfortable with. All it means is a separation of the state and religion, of the state maintaining the same distance from all religions and acting as the custodian for all beliefs. It is based on respect for all faiths and the coexistence of plural beliefs.

            I can tell you from my conversations with the leaders in Egypt or Tunisia, including those with a religious identity, that they are very open-minded and comfortable with this Anglo-Saxon sense of secular government.

            They understand that what we are doing in Turkey is focusing on fundamental freedoms. Freedom to practice one’s own religion is one of the most fundamental of freedoms. We are lifting the barriers, that’s all.
            This implies should the MB get into office they are going to try & tweak the civil law system of French origin that is in place. But as mentioned earlier it already provides for islamic interpretations..

            “in the absence of any applicable legislation, the judge shall decide according to the custom and failing the custom, according to the principles of Islamic Law. In the absence of these principles, the judge shall have recourse to natural law and the rules of equity.”

            Comment


            • People crowded around vans in the large sun-baked parking lot, listening to stereos blaring Judge Ahmed Refaat’s long and flowery pronouncement of the verdict. When Refaat read out that Mubarak was sentenced to life, a huge roar erupted, reminiscent of celebrations on the night of his ouster on 11 February 2011.

              Some chanted “God is Great” as others knelt to the ground in thanks. Young men began singing football songs and there was a jovial atmosphere. That quickly soured. As news came out that Gamal and Alaa Mubarak had been acquitted, along with Adly’s six aides, people became incensed. Clashes began with Central Security Forces standing guard.

              The Mubarak supporters were also angry. They chased photographers and anyone who approached them. One irate man attacked a car. Eventually, the Mubarak supporters left, being heavily outnumbered by the anti-Mubarak protesters on the other side.
              Mubarak gets life | Egypt Independent | Jun 2 2012

              Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Jun 12,, 14:08.

              Comment


              • There is a lot of commentary regarding this SCC's ruling on Thursday. It's getting spun as a victory for the counter-revolutionary forces and phrased as a soft coup. The upcoming presidential elections scheduled for this weekend are in doubt as well.

                The two main points are that

                - officials from the previous regime would not be barred from running for office so Shafiq can continue to run. In effect striking down as unconsitutional the political isolation law recently passed.
                - one third of parliament (lower house) is to be dissolved as they constitute single winner seats and are illegal.

                Cannot as yet see anything wrong with either of these two rulings. As they represent the rule of law over what the mob would prefer. So will just stick to this article about the ruling and leave any further commentary for later after things settle.

                Court rules political isolation and election laws unconstitutional | Egypt Independent | Jul 14 2012

                Court rules political isolation and election laws unconstitutional
                Egypt Independent
                Thu, 14/06/2012 - 14:53

                The Supreme Constitutional Court ruled Thursday that a law governing parliamentary elections is unconstitutional in a landmark case that could result in the dissolution of Parliament.

                It is unclear whether new elections will be held for single-winner seats, which make up one-third of Parliament and were deemed to have been elected illegally, or if the entire legislature may be disbanded.

                Following an approximately three-hour hearing, Egypt's highest court also struck down the Political Isolation Law that strips top ex-officials of political rights, allowing former Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq to continue his bid for president.

                Acting as the country’s executive power, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces amended the parliamentary elections law several times. At issue is the last amendment, which reversed an earlier stipulation that parties could not compete for single-winner seats in the elections that began last fall.

                Protesters outside the court erupted when the verdict was announced, chanting "The people want the judiciary to be purged." They said that the ruling promises a "second revolution." People's Assembly Speaker Saad al-Katatny of the Freedom and Justice Party was among those elected in a single-winner race.

                Before the ruling, liberal MP Mohamed Abou Hamed wrote on Twitter that he hopes Parliament is dissolved, as the current body is "not worthy of Egypt."

                The Supreme Constitutional Court's decisions cannot be appealed.

                Shafiq’s lawyer, Shawqy al-Sayed, told the court in his arguments that the Political Isolation Law represents an unprecedented case in Egypt’s political history and that it deprives those who are subject to it of their most basic constitutional rights.

                He called the law "selective and vengeful," noting that it applies only to some of those who held posts within the dissolved National Democratic Party in violation of the constitutional principle of equality.

                After his arguments, the court took a recess for deliberation and then reconvened.

                The law, which was passed by Parliament and then approved by the ruling military council in April, bars former President Hosni Mubarak and anyone who served as vice president or prime minister or at the helm of his National Democratic Party during the last 10 years of his rule from running for office, as well as removing other political rights.

                Shafiq was briefly disqualified from the race after the law was passed, but the Presidential Elections Commission reinstated him upon appeal and referred the law for constitutional review. The referral itself has also been the subject of debate, with some questioning whether the commission acted beyond its legal bounds.

                In a non-binding report, a panel of court commissioners recently said that the elections commission is an administrative institution that does not have the jurisdiction to act as a legal body and refer the law for review. The panel said the constitutional court should not rule on the case for this reason, but that if it did, it should strike down the law.

                Meanwhile, dozens of protesters gathered Thursday outside the Supreme Constitutional Court in the Cairo neighborhood of Maadi, chanting in support of the law. For some, Shafiq’s exclusion was the last chance that a liberal candidate could be reinstated.

                His potential removal from the race has been the subject of much speculation in recent months as to whether elections would be re-conducted or third-place candidate Hamdeen Sabbahi would be allowed to take his place in the runoff against Mohamed Morsy.

                Traffic on the Nile Corniche was paralyzed, with cars lined up for several kilometers, prompting police to redirect vehicles to alternative routes. Tight security measures were imposed in the surrounding area and hundreds of soldiers and Central Security Forces, with their armored vehicles, lined up around the court.

                Wasat Party MP Essam Sultan, who drafted the Political Isolation Law, as well as a number of judges, are observing the session. Supreme Constitutional Court head judge Farouk Sultan is among them, but will not preside over the review because of his position at the helm of the Presidential Elections Commission.

                Comment


                • You owe me, Double Edge :)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                    You owe me, Double Edge :)
                    Oh ?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                      Oh ?
                      Just kidding, my comment was regarding the bortherhood rise to power, from antoher thread where you said that the situation is 50%-50%.

                      Comment


                      • Oh , yes i conceded that one a while back. But the results of the presidential election have not been announced yet.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Oh , yes i conceded that one a while back. But the results of the presidential election have not been announced yet.
                          They are now,
                          Muslim Brotherhood's Morsi declared Egypt's new president - CNN.com :)

                          Comment


                          • The presidency is largely a figurehead position, as the country's military rulers maintain much of the control over the country.
                            Do not underestimate the power of the counter revolution.

                            Comment


                            • So what we have to look for in the future?
                              Most likely the civil war in Egypt,closing down the Suez straight,oil prices going up,European economy crumbling,attacks on Israel,Siriya vs Nato and Balkans re igniting again. Culmination will be, as usual, the Iran.

                              Comment


                              • Let things happen first :)

                                How long is this phase going to last. or will there be a coup.

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