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And let's not forget one thing - those villages actually attacked in February by government troops? Those were AQ nests, wholesale. US Intelligence actually claimed exactly that years ago with regard to those villages. I'm looking at you, Darnah, and your "20% of AQ in Iraq" contribution. Btw, the rest of Libyan AQ fighters identified by US intelligence? Misrata.
What's next, intervention in Pakistan for the exact same thing in a 180-degree turn for that theater?
Libya's interim leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil on Wednesday urged NATO to continue its Libya campaign until year's end, saying loyalists of slain despot Moamer Kadhafi still pose a threat to the country.
Qatar revealed that hundreds of its troops had been involved alongside Libyans in their battle to topple the longtime despot.
Previously the gas-rich country said it had only lent the support of its air force to the operations.
Foreign intervention both in air and ground.
Qatar's chief of staff Major General Hamad bin Ali Al-Atiya said the Qatari personnel had been "running the training and communication operations."
"Qatar had supervised the rebels' plans because they are civilians and did not have enough military experience. We acted as the link between the rebels and NATO forces," he said.
Sudan revealed that it had provided weapons shipments to the anti-Kadhafi forces in retaliation for his regime's funding and arming of rebels in Darfur.
"The Sudanese people gave its support, both humanitarian assistance and weapons, which were delivered to all the revolutionaries, in Misrata, in the western mountains, in Zawiyah and in all of Libya's regions," President Omar al-Bashir said.
Rationalizing intervention my thoughts revolve around
1) diminishment of available oil production per day on the world market for price control.
2) redistribution of said assets post-facto to Euro holders to divirsify from Mid-East/Russia.
[in some way these conflict between each other]
This could succeed provided the whole civil war ordeal does not continue indefinitely. Thus far the artificial structure of the "rebels" strength and power projection across the country makes the continued struggle likely after the supports come off.
2) redistribution of said assets post-facto to Euro holders to divirsify from Mid-East/Russia.
What redistribution? Europe already owned Libyan oil ante bellum. Sure, there were some Chinese and US companies in the market, but when you get down to it, 80-90% of all assets in Libya relevant to oil and gas exploitation were owned by only three companies - Total from France, ENI from Italy and Wintershall from Germany. And, running with current NTC and NOC press releases in this regard, this situation won't change in any way.
If at all, the war would have been about securing the current distribution. Gaddafi was supposedly putting pressure on France and Italy to get more money and support by threatening to let the current licenses run out.
Germany - Wintershall - was left out of both this and the war. Nothing to win, nothing to lose. Wintershall reports exactly one death among its about 500 Libyan employees during the war and exactly zero damage to any of the several billions of euros worth of equipment they own down there. Oh yeah, they got the NOC to rename an oil field after the dead guy too.
What redistribution? Europe already owned Libyan oil ante bellum. Sure, there were some Chinese and US companies in the market, but when you get down to it, 80-90% of all assets in Libya relevant to oil and gas exploitation were owned by only three companies - Total from France, ENI from Italy and Wintershall from Germany. And, running with current NTC and NOC press releases in this regard, this situation won't change in any way.
If at all, the war would have been about securing the current distribution. Gaddafi was supposedly putting pressure on France and Italy to get more money and support by threatening to let the current licenses run out.
Germany - Wintershall - was left out of both this and the war. Nothing to win, nothing to lose. Wintershall reports exactly one death among its about 500 Libyan employees during the war and exactly zero damage to any of the several billions of euros worth of equipment they own down there. Oh yeah, they got the NOC to rename an oil field after the dead guy too.
Your ignoring tarrif, and oil export rates. And the National Oil Company which ownes most of the assets or has majority share. Qadaffi nationalized a lot of foreign interests in 69', redistribution of these assets and tarriff rates will most likely happen. Along with current and future contracts for development etc...
The majority of oil is still owned by Libyan national interests not foreign corporations...
The comment of Europe owning most of the assets (share wise) is not true. They held minority shares or were operating partners but the national gov't benefited the most from pumping (that is where the redistribution comes in).
I'm very curious how all the money will be redistributed.We may see that Gaddafi's loyalists will get nothing.Then another round will start. There's also the ~200 billions abroad.Even these days,that's a lot of money.
Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
Touch'n'Cheek Political Accounting: 3 Bucks for me - and - 1 for them! ... 3 Bucks for me - and - 1 for them! ... 3 Bucks for me - and - 1 for them! ...
Remember: You can hear them now...
Originally posted by Jeffrey Pelt, National Security Advisor, Hunt for the Red October:
Listen, I'm a politician which means I'm a cheat and a liar, and when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing their lollipops. But it also means I keep my options open.
Yes,Sir.There might also be a special sort of mathematicians among them.The kind that knows only addition and division
Libya and jokes aside(I know I repeat myself) the next interesting place is going to be Algeria.AQIM just aquired a base and big chunk of guns&cash thanks to democratic forces and the good guys that kill them in A-stan.
Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
What redistribution? Europe already owned Libyan oil ante bellum. Sure, there were some Chinese and US companies in the market, but when you get down to it, 80-90% of all assets in Libya relevant to oil and gas exploitation were owned by only three companies - Total from France, ENI from Italy and Wintershall from Germany. And, running with current NTC and NOC press releases in this regard, this situation won't change in any way.
If at all, the war would have been about securing the current distribution. Gaddafi was supposedly putting pressure on France and Italy to get more money and support by threatening to let the current licenses run out.
Germany - Wintershall - was left out of both this and the war. Nothing to win, nothing to lose. Wintershall reports exactly one death among its about 500 Libyan employees during the war and exactly zero damage to any of the several billions of euros worth of equipment they own down there. Oh yeah, they got the NOC to rename an oil field after the dead guy too.
Aha! So it was about oil!!! :)
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
As is usual in these cases, there are a number of POVs that influence the axe that grinds. Certainly, Libya is an influence --- while small in terms of production, the energy it does produce --- does have a measurable impact on the economy of Europe; especial in the winter season. But that is a "continued supply" issue having to do with the outcome of the revolt.
Certainly "oil" is a piece --- but, not a big piece.
But there are nations that see the Arab Spring for something completely different. They don't care about the energy resources, or the commercial implication. They see the chaos of the infectious revolt as an internalization of the radical elements that the Islamic Nations have produced over the last 5 decades. If the Arab Spring can focus the energies of these more radical elements in on themselves, in the chaos there will be a less of a threat internationally.
In the outcome of the Arab Spring, some of the previous threat modules will be weakened (some more than others), some will expose themselves (to the indigenous populations) as worse alternatives to the capitalist pigs they have challenged for half a century (plus). There will be continued struggles in some quarters; benefiting the stability in other states wishing to avoid additional economic hardships and political unrest. There will be an anti-radical underground developed by those that have money and power, and don't want to lose what they have. They will also internalize, targeting the radical influences that threaten their way of life, and quietly eliminating those that seem be advancing the Arab Spring Movement. Then there will be the effects of the unseen commercial interest, like the underground weapons traffickers that will promote revolution, but help maintain a balance between the factions to keep the turmoil in motion.
There are some that believe, it is in the best interest of the international community if the Islamic Nations, of the Middle East and Gulf Region, turn there aggressive radicalism in upon itself, eating its own. They didn't plan it (the Arab Spring), they didn't forecast it, but its emergence is to the benefit of many; to promote it and amplify its effects. (Why not take advantage of the development?) With (as an example) Syria, fighting for the life of the Regime, it is less likely to focus on external troublemaking.
Most Respectfully,
R
Last edited by RoccoR; 28 Oct 11,, 16:49.
Reason: Spelling
There's also the ~200 billions abroad.Even these days,that's a lot of money.
Money that's in the name of libya can be dealt with without too much problem.
However money in his personal name will take years and the libyan govt will have to apply to each & every bank or trust that his money is in and make requests. Banks will not care that the libyan people deserve it, why should they part with it is their main concern.
As is usual in these cases, there are a number of POVs that influence the axe that grinds. Certainly, Libya is an influence --- while small in terms of production, the energy it does produce --- does have a measurable impact on the economy of Europe; especial in the winter season. But that is a "continued supply" issue having to do with the outcome of the revolt. (COMMENT)
Certainly "oil" is a piece --- but, not a big piece.
But there are nations that see the Arab Spring for something completely different. They don't care about the energy resources, or the commercial implication. They see the chaos of the infectious revolt as an internalization of the radical elements that the Islamic Nations have produced over the last 5 decades. If the Arab Spring can focus the energies of these more radical elements in on themselves, in the chaos there will be a less of a threat internationally.
In the outcome of the Arab Spring, some of the previous threat modules will be weakened (some more than others), some will expose themselves (to the indigenous populations) as worse alternatives to the capitalist pigs they have challenged for half a century (plus). There will be continued struggles in some quarters; benefiting the stability in other states wishing to avoid additional economic hardships and political unrest. There will be an anti-radical underground developed by those that have money and power, and don't want to lose what they have. They will also internalize, targeting the radical influences that threaten their way of life, and quietly eliminating those that seem be advancing the Arab Spring Movement. Then there will be the effects of the unseen commercial interest, like the underground weapons traffickers that will promote revolution, but help maintain a balance between the factions to keep the turmoil in motion.
There are some that believe, it is in the best interest of the international community if the Islamic Nations, of the Middle East and Gulf Region, turn there aggressive radicalism in upon itself, eating its own. They didn't plan it (the Arab Spring), they didn't forecast it, but its emergence is to the benefit of many; to promote it and amplify its effects. (Why not take advantage of the development?) With (as an example) Syria, fighting for the life of the Regime, it is less likely to focus on external troublemaking.
Most Respectfully,
R
Sure, but in this case, the French, was very gung-ho about bombing Libya to support the anti-government forces there from the very beginning. They dragged the Brits and the Italians in. Ultimately, The Obama decided to support the bombing with US forces without bothering the approval of the congress.
Notice the French don't give a crap about the people being butchered in Syria.
Saudi forces helped crush the uprising in Bahrain and no one cared. We couldn't because we need Saudi oil and the Bahrain base.
No one cares about the uprising in Yemen. Well...we do, but we like the government there for the basing rights.
All I want is for the MSM to come out and tell it like what it is. French was in it for oil in Libya. The Obama acted unilaterally to bomb Libya (no congressional approval). Bush sought and received congressional approval to invade Iraq.
The Obama is acting more and more like a king than an elected representative of the 50 states.
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
It was reported that UN is going to present on its report about tortures in post-war Libya. As it turned out thousands of people are being hold in prisons without hope for fair and square trial. The biggest part of contained is accused in being loyal to Gaddafi and fighting in his cause. According to UN, former prisoners who were jailed during the course of Gaddafi were discharge but prisons didn’t stay empty for a long time. Different wings of LNC control prisons and put there everyone they consider being loyal or associated with Gaddafi, even women and children, Africans are also being pursued by LNC for their black skin. UN speakers emphasize that all prisoners are being massively tortured and brutally killed by NLC members. Though the process of delegating control over prisons from NLC factions to new government of Libya is started, Libyans still stay in mortal danger.
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