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  • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    Sir you are preaching to the choir here. We should not intervene in the uprisings in various middle eastern countries. Like you said, we don't know the incoming regime should the uprisings succeed like that have in Egypt and Libya. Gaddhafi was no saint but at least in recent years he has renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west in exchanged for not getting invaded by GW "Mad Cowboy" Bush.

    He did not see the rising of The Obama...
    I am really curious how he pissed Sarkozy that much.

    Gadaffi I mean.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      I am really curious how he pissed Sarkozy that much.

      Gadaffi I mean.
      Gadaffi pissed off a rich Frenchman. I forgot the name, but he lobbied heavily to have the French involved in Libya. He is also a prototypical euro socialist.
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

      Comment


      • the Sharia law thing - isnīt the whole islamic world based on that? the only country AFAIK that does not mention it on itīīs constitution, is Turkey. Lybia might go whicever direction, but islam is going to play a role there anyway, so this article IMO is no big deal.
        If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

        Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BD1 View Post
          the Sharia law thing - isnīt the whole islamic world based on that?
          It depends on whether we're talking civil law or judicial law. In Egypt, Algeria and Morocco, i.e. the other Maghreb states, Sharia is only applied in civil matters, often only in side issues such as family law - but never in criminal law. Criminal and civil law in these countries is usually based on either the Napoleonic Code or on that mixed with some British concepts (Egypt).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BD1 View Post
            the Sharia law thing - isnīt the whole islamic world based on that?
            Originally posted by kato View Post
            It depends on whether we're talking civil law or judicial law. In Egypt, Algeria and Morocco, i.e. the other Maghreb states, Sharia is only applied in civil matters, often only in side issues such as family law - but never in criminal law. Criminal and civil law in these countries is usually based on either the Napoleonic Code or on that mixed with some British concepts (Egypt).
            As Sharia Law has a foothold in the UK are we now classed as in the 'Islamic World' ;)

            Comment


            • dave lukins, et al,

              I respectfully disagree. While it is true that the fundamental foundation of laws in the UK are derived in consideration of many sources, Sharia being just one, I would not characterize Sharia as having a foothold.

              A whole set of books can be written on this topic, but I will give you a thumbnail view of my thought (one man's opinion).
              Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
              As Sharia Law has a foothold in the UK are we now classed as in the 'Islamic World' ;)
              (COMMENT)

              The Koran is an ethical doctrine that mandates service to the Highest Power, the Supreme Being. And that all things done, righteously, are done according to the will of the Supreme Being. The Koran is an ancient writing of a "pathway" for the believer to follow, set by the Supreme Being. Having spent some time in the Middle East, I find that some Muslims believe Sharia to be God's Law.

              To the contrary, UK Law suggest that "Human Rights" have the priority and that there is a certain "freedom of Will." That, barring the interference with the greater good of the Human Society, Laws are only written by man to protect man (the society).

              As long as, in the UK, the citizen respects the rights of others (the People's rights), then they must respect yours.

              (SIDEBAR)

              In some cases, it can be said that Sharia has an influence in the UK. This would not be unreasonable. Based on some of my observations, my interpretation is that the government of the UK has, in some cases, granted a wide berth to the followers of Islam, in the name of the greater good and to reduce friction between a 7th Century Dogma and the advancing culture of the 21st Century.

              Most Respectfully,
              R

              Comment


              • gunnut,

                We should not intervene in the uprisings in various middle eastern countries. Like you said, we don't know the incoming regime should the uprisings succeed like that have in Egypt and Libya. Gaddhafi was no saint but at least in recent years he has renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west in exchanged for not getting invaded by GW "Mad Cowboy" Bush.

                He did not see the rising of The Obama...
                Gaddafi's mistake was to blatantly ignore what the West was telling him. if it was true that "he renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west", then obviously he broke that part of the deal when he pretty much told the West to go take a hike when the West told him to stand down from a wholesale massacre.

                once he crossed that line, all his other promises became even more worthless than they already were. this could not be tolerated from someone who ordered lockerbie and the nightclub bombings.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  gunnut,



                  Gaddafi's mistake was to blatantly ignore what the West was telling him. if it was true that "he renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west", then obviously he broke that part of the deal when he pretty much told the West to go take a hike when the West told him to stand down from a wholesale massacre.
                  Nobody gives a damn about massacre. Last month rebels do exactly the same thing Gaddafi was blamed on in February - massive use of heavy weapons (artillery, MLRS) against heavily populated areas, mass executions of prisoners and civilians, robbering and even more - ethnic cleansings agains black population of Lybia. Nobody gives a shit.
                  Winter is coming.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    gunnut,



                    Gaddafi's mistake was to blatantly ignore what the West was telling him. if it was true that "he renounced terrorism and tried to work with the west", then obviously he broke that part of the deal when he pretty much told the West to go take a hike when the West told him to stand down from a wholesale massacre.

                    once he crossed that line, all his other promises became even more worthless than they already were. this could not be tolerated from someone who ordered lockerbie and the nightclub bombings.
                    He renounced terrorism and turned over his WMD program to the west. What more could we want from him? Sure, he was a terrible human being and no one's sad to see him go, but as the saying goes, "nations don't have friends, only temporary allies." He owed us a few but that was 20 years ago. We are doing business in Vietnam now.

                    So he's killing his own people. So what? Should we bomb Syria too? Why is Syria any different? How about North Korea? Wait, NK doesn't have oil. Neither does Syria.

                    Now we have traded a known quantity for an unknown. The devil we don't know just might be worse.
                    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                    Comment


                    • Hypocrisy is like air in international relations.

                      We just gave AQ&buddies a virtually infinite supply of MANPADS.The rest of the arsenal is just a bonus.

                      Whose betting we'll see those in action 6 months from now?
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • gunnut,

                        He renounced terrorism and turned over his WMD program to the west. What more could we want from him? Sure, he was a terrible human being and no one's sad to see him go, but as the saying goes, "nations don't have friends, only temporary allies." He owed us a few but that was 20 years ago. We are doing business in Vietnam now.

                        So he's killing his own people. So what? Should we bomb Syria too? Why is Syria any different? How about North Korea?
                        if gaddafi is going to associate himself with the west/join the international system to reap its benefits, then he shouldn't be surprised when we insist on western mores in a western-dominated international system. like i said, his rejection of that part of the international system makes his promises that he will adhere to other parts of the system far less trustworthy.

                        neither syria nor north korea is in the international system. they have their own set of penalties, anyway.

                        Now we have traded a known quantity for an unknown. The devil we don't know just might be worse.
                        i refer you to col yu's earlier post.

                        http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...tml#post839011
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          gunnut,

                          if gaddafi is going to associate himself with the west/join the international system to reap its benefits, then he shouldn't be surprised when we insist on western mores in a western-dominated international system. like i said, his rejection of that part of the international system makes his promises that he will adhere to other parts of the system far less trustworthy.

                          neither syria nor north korea is in the international system. they have their own set of penalties, anyway.
                          They're not in the international system because they don't have oil.


                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          i refer you to col yu's earlier post.

                          http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...tml#post839011
                          I thought you meant we got The Obama in office rather than Hillary...
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                          Comment


                          • gunnut,

                            They're not in the international system because they don't have oil.
                            they're not in the international system because they support terrorism, generally refuse to engage in international trade, accept international mores, etc.

                            for better or worse-- and i'd say for better-- the international system demands as a price of acceptance into its ranks that the governing entity does not engage in or threaten massacre.

                            which is precisely why the new libyan government is now beginning to at least carry out motions of investigations and at the minimum address international concerns over what happened to gaddafi as well as some of his diehard supporters.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Mihais, et al,

                              This is a very grave concern; among other weapons systems.

                              This may just be another case where the National Security Decision Making Process (NSDMP) failed us again.

                              This may be just another example where the NSDMP did not adequately assemble a viable post-conflict strategy. We've been doing that a lot of late.
                              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                              Hypocrisy is like air in international relations.

                              We just gave AQ&buddies a virtually infinite supply of MANPADS.The rest of the arsenal is just a bonus.

                              Whose betting we'll see those in action 6 months from now?
                              (COMMENT)

                              For all intent and purposes, this marks the collapse of the government and the glue that holds it together. There is very little question that we will see an influx in the weapons trade.

                              What we have is a shell of a state, with no real head. The economic conditions are such that nearly 30% of the population is in poverty. While it is the case that some political inertia will keep it going for a short time, the economic pressures will cause increased corruption and crime. This includes pilfering the treasury and bleeding the arsenal of end-items of commercial value.
                              Originally posted by Albert Einstein
                              "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

                              We should not use the same brain power to help Libya, as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US professionals (intelligence & diplomatic officers, politicians and government bureaucrats) are very week in their understanding of "what the Libyians want and need." Certainly we should be very cautious in how we approach nation building and reforms. We have not demonstrated any special gift in furthering those types of assistance measures. We should be extremely careful not to inject a (ever increasing) military contingent (advisers) into Libya. And, we want an extremely low profile of intelligence personnel visible to the new candidates for leadership; until such time as chaos subsides.

                              Most Respectfully,
                              R

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                                We just gave AQ&buddies a virtually infinite supply of MANPADS.The rest of the arsenal is just a bonus.
                                The MANPADS won't work for long - therefore not infinite. Batteries run out. Sure, they could get new ones, but they'd need a good line with Iran, Romania or Russia for new batteries for SA-7.

                                The rest of the arsenal is more worrying in that regard. A ZU-23 hidden on the back of a truck placed in the right position with a pair of trained guys will bring down a civilian airliner on landing approach just as well as a Strela. A mortar is damn useful if you're in a guerilla campaign. A couple hundred sniper rifles are just as useful. And a few thousand artillery shells and anti-tank mines make excellent IEDs.

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