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  • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    We can wait all you want,if the conditions don't change,the SHTF even harder the longer you wait.
    I did not say wait indefnitely :)

    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    The riot started because those with 1$/day found they don't get another $ to meet the rising costs.That buck will still be missing and religion is something the desperate embrace at times,together with violence.Paradoxes of life and human nature.
    And said religion isn't going to put food in the table is it.

    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    Al Shabab in Somalia was actually quite popular because it restored a semblance of law and order.Islamists aren't only enfants terrible they also tend to have some competent administrators and some of the least corrupt.That's generally true for the first generation of revolutionaries.
    You think comparing Egypt to Somalia is a valid comparison ?

    Why not compare with Afghanistan too ? and you will see that even the Taliban could not come to power without help from the neighbour next door.

    The common factor with Somalia & Afghanistan is a long civil war, this is not the case in Egypt, Tunisia or Libya.

    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    To be a cynical a$$hole as always,I'll tell I don't give a damn about the good of others.I embrace democracy,freedom of speech and capitalism because they work in creating a prosperous and sustainable society.
    Right, so will these societies as well. They've already had to fight for it, i don't think they will settle for another group coming in and replacing the older one. So long as the people remain vigilant thats all that is needed regardless of what regime eventually comes to power.

    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    Power games still need to be played,democracy or not.Not taking them for granted is something that undermines the power,wealth and influence of our present allies.That's bad enough.
    Improvise, adapt, overcome :)

    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    About undermining the balance of power,yes.Whomever comes to rule these places,it will have to gain popularity with petrodollars.It will have to consider their sympathies and enmities.It will create forced by events a new power center.Again,that's bad as it is,without even doing anything.
    The point i wanted to make is regardless of which regime comes into power they will not be able to alter the present balance of power wrt to other states. They just don't have the power to do that. If they get a bad govt they will be the ones paying the highest price.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      And said religion isn't going to put food in the table is it.
      It's not about putting food on the table,is about making them think of something else.Works for a while.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      You think comparing Egypt to Somalia is a valid comparison ?
      Why not compare with Afghanistan too ? and you will see that even the Taliban could not come to power without help from the neighbour next door.
      The common factor with Somalia & Afghanistan is a long civil war, this is not the case in Egypt, Tunisia or Libya.


      Right, so will these societies as well. They've already had to fight for it, i don't think they will settle for another group coming in and replacing the older one. So long as the people remain vigilant thats all that is needed regardless of what regime eventually comes to power.
      Valid points.Still it's not about the civil war per se,but the effects.If the crisis doesn't cease ,and right now it's about to extend,people will turn to strongmen.And not only in the ME.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Improvise, adapt, overcome :)
      You won't accuse us of imperialism,won't you?


      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      The point i wanted to make is regardless of which regime comes into power they will not be able to alter the present balance of power wrt to other states. They just don't have the power to do that. If they get a bad govt they will be the ones paying the highest price.
      We'll live and see.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        It's not about putting food on the table,is about making them think of something else.Works for a while.
        Nothing beats putting food on the table other than opportunity. Islamists might suceed initially at it but the trick is to continue being able to do that and thats where they will face trouble. These countries aren't oil rich the only resources they have are human.

        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        Valid points.Still it's not about the civil war per se,but the effects.If the crisis doesn't cease ,and right now it's about to extend,people will turn to strongmen.And not only in the ME.
        Agree its the effects, so how long have the civil wars in Afg & Somalia raged on for ? 20 & 30 yrs almost. You want to compare that to the Egypt, Libya & Tunisia ?

        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        You won't accuse us of imperialism,won't you?
        Why did you allow these movements to progress in the first place ?

        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        We'll live and see.
        No govt that comes to power in Egypt will overturn the peace accords signed with Israel in the late 70s. They can do a lot of other things but they will always stop short of it.

        What credible threat do these countries pose to others ? they are in dire need of fixing their own problems before thinking of projecting force abroad. The only country of late that seems to be attempting this is Turkey.

        How long until Egypt, Tunisa & Libya attempt the same ?

        Comment


        • You think in conventional terms and only in short term,say a decade.And by unconventional I don't mean only terorism.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

          Comment


          • What do you have in mind ?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              What do you have in mind ?
              Depends on the mood

              ME history has its cycles.The idea that these guys won't form a union(under whatever name) is something I don't eve consider.As for conflicts,you don't need to send the Abd El Rahman's army to Tours these days.It's already there.
              A great Islamic power will make sure the muslims in Europe have even less incentive to assimilate.
              The decline of the Ottoman Empire started when they talked to Austria and Poland on equal footing.Now it will be the reverse.
              Pari had it right,IMO, in another thread.We're looking at the second fall of the Roman Empire.Want some popcorn?
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

              Comment


              • Help me as i try to decipher what you just wrote.

                - a successful democratic arab state that was formerly a dictatorship means muslim immigrants in europe have no incentive to integrate. Might such a state hold on to more of its people instead of losing them to emigration ?

                - a successful democratic state will somehow be the downfall of europe. Would this be because europe is in decline and that it cannot compete with such a state.

                The idea that these guys won't form a union(under whatever name) is something I don't eve consider
                man, i do not like dbl negatives, so you think they will form some union.

                Like the EU

                my mistake thats not a political union, its a fiscal union, oops, its not even that, its a gentleman's agreement where a bunch of states agreee to keep their books in order so that together they may remain a relevant entity in the world.

                But nah, just because you geniuses are struggling at it, of course it has been foretold that the Arabs will do it in a snap under Allah

                Comment


                • U.S. checking reports of Gaddafi's capture, death

                  Reuters

                  U.S. checking reports of Gaddafi's capture, death | Reuters



                  (Reuters) - U.S. officials on Thursday scrambled to check reports that deposed Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi had died after being captured near his hometown of Sirte following months of civil war.

                  Gaddafi was wounded in the head and legs as he tried to flee in a convoy that came under attack from NATO warplanes at dawn, a senior official with Libya's National Transitional Council told Reuters.

                  A senior Obama administration official said the U.S. was working to confirm the reports.

                  "We're working on it," the official said.

                  Gaddafi's death followed months of NATO military action in Libya that began over a government crackdown against pro-democracy protesters inspired by protests in neighboring Tunisia and Egypt that ended in the overthrow of long-standing autocratic leaders.

                  The United States led the initial air strikes on Gaddafi's forces but quickly handed the lead over to NATO, while taking a secondary role to Britain and France.

                  The NATO bombing campaign helped Libya's rebels take power.

                  Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Tuesday became the most senior U.S. official to visit Tripoli since Gaddafi's four-decade rule ended in August.

                  Clinton hailed "Libya's victory." But her visit was marked by tight security in a sign of worries that the country's new rulers have yet to establish full control over the country.

                  Gaddafi was wanted by the International Criminal Court on charges of ordering the killing of civilians.

                  He was believed to be hiding deep in Libya's Sahara desert. His wife, two sons and a daughter fled to neighboring Algeria shortly after Tripoli fell to rebel forces in August.

                  (Reporting by Matt Spetalnick and David Morgan; Editing by Vicki Allen)

                  Comment


                  • Reports surface of Gadhafi's capture, death

                    By the CNN Wire Staff
                    October 20, 2011 -- Updated 1306 GMT (2106 HKT)

                    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/20/wo...ica/libya-war/

                    Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Conflicting reports surfaced Thursday that deposed Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is dead or has been captured. Deafening celebrations erupted in Tripoli, but none of the reports could be independently verified.

                    Gadhafi was killed, AbdelHakim Bilhajj, head of the National Transitional Council's military arm in Tripoli announced live on Al-Jazeera Arabic Thursday. Gadhafi's death was also reported by National Transitional Council television station Al-Ahrar. It did not cite a source.

                    A cell phone photograph distributed by the news agency Agence France Presse appeared to show the arrest of a bloodied Gadhafi. CNN could not independently verify the authenticity of the image.

                    Gadhafi's capture was also reported by Libyan television, citing the Misrata Military Council.

                    Earlier, a National Transitional Council military spokesman told CNN that reports of Gadhafi's capture are only rumors. Abdurahman Bousin added that it's doubtful that Gadhafi was even in or around his hometown of Sirte.

                    A "big fish" has been captured in Libya, but Libyan Information Minister Mahmoud Shammam couldn't say with certainty whether it was Gadhafi.

                    The U.S. State Department could not confirm any of the reports about Gadhafi's capture or killing, a spokeswoman said.

                    In another major development, revolutionary fighters said they wrested control of Sirte Thursday. And NATO said it is going to convene soon for a meeting to discuss ending its operation in Libya, a source told CNN.

                    Earlier, NATO aircraft struck two pro-Gadhafi military vehicles in the Sirte vicinity.

                    Without foolproof evidence of Gadhafi's capture, it was unclear whether Thursday would turn out to be the biggest day in recent Libyan history. Statements made by representatives of Libya's new leadership in the past have not always turned out to be true.

                    Still, Libyans erupted in joy. Horns blared and celebratory gunfire burst into the air in Tripoli.

                    Gadhafi ruled Libya with an iron fist for 42 years. The mercurial leader came to power in a bloodless coup against King Idris in 1969, when he was just an army captain.

                    But a February uprising evolved into civil war that resulted in ousting the strongman from power.

                    Many were waiting for photographs as proof of Gadhafi's capture.

                    Earlier, anti-Gadhafi fighters said they had taken control of the last holdout of loyalists in Sirte. They said they were still battling pockets of resistance, but they were in control of District 2.

                    Sirte has been the big prize for Libya's NTC, waiting for the city to fall to officially declare liberation.

                    Most residents abandoned Sirte in the many weeks of bloody battles that raged there. Revolutionary forces have fought Gadhafi's men street by street, cornering the last vestiges of the old regime to that last district.

                    Gadhafi, wanted by the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands, for alleged crimes against humanity has not been seen in public in months. Many believed he was hiding out in Sirte after rebel forces marched into Tripoli in August.

                    CNN's Dan Rivers, Mohammed Tawfeeq and Barbara Starr contributed to this report.
                    Last edited by observer7; 20 Oct 11,, 14:20.

                    Comment


                    • Libya's Muammar Gaddafi is dead, says military commander

                      Herald Sun
                      http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mua...-1226172311578



                      OUSTED Libyan despot Muammar Gaddafi is dead, a Transitional National Council (TNC) official has confirmed to Sky News.

                      "Gaddafi is dead. He is absolutely dead ... he was shot in both legs and in the head. The body will be arriving in Misrata soon," media spokesman Abdullah Berrassali told Sky News.

                      Gaddafi was captured as his hometown of Sirte was falling yesterday, NTC commander Mohamed Leith said.

                      "He has been captured. He is badly wounded, but he is still breathing," Mohamed Leith told AFP earlier, adding that he had seen Gaddafi himself and that he was wearing a khaki uniform and a turban.

                      The Daily Mail reported that one rebel fighter reportedly said the leader was hiding in a hole in Sirte, shouting "Don't shoot. Don't shoot" when his position was uncovered.

                      Gaddafi and his family have been on the run since NATO and rebels started closing the net on Tripoli in mid-August.

                      Neither NATO nor the US State Department were able to confirm Gaddafi's capture.

                      Earlier, the TNC's UK spokesman, Mahmoud Nacua, warned that there was "not enough information" to confirm Gaddafi's capture, and a former TNC spokesman in Britain, Guma al Gamati told Sky News that "this is not confirmed".

                      The BBC's Caroline Hawley in Tripoli said ships and cars were sounding their horns in the capital and guns were being fired in celebration.

                      Earlier, NTC commanders in Sirte - about 360km east of Tripoli - said the city had been liberated.

                      "There are no Gaddafi forces any more," Col Yunus al-Abdali told Reuters.

                      "We are now chasing his fighters who are trying to run away."

                      There was no confirmation of liberation from the NTC leadership.

                      But fighters in Sirte celebrated by firing in the air, and chanting "Allah akbar" ("God is great").


                      Rebel fighters celebrate in Sirte. Picture: AP

                      Interim government forces had been facing heavy resistance from snipers in the city, and used heavy artillery during its offensive. Thousands of civilians have fled.

                      Sirte was the last holdout against rebel forces. The town's capture would pave the way for the TNC to officially take control of Libya and move its headquarters away from its Benghazi stronghold in the east to the capital, Tripoli.

                      In Sirte, medics said the defence minister in Gaddafi's ousted regime, Abu Bakr Yunis, had been killed in the final battle for the strongman's hometown.

                      His body was identified at the field hospital where it was brought in a pick-up truck on Thursday, Dr Abdu Rauf told AFP.

                      Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said in response to reports of Gaddafi's capture that only the Libyan people could decide the deposed strongman's fate.

                      "The fate of Gaddafi should be decided by the Libyan people," Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

                      Comment


                      • The pictures of him show him in a bad way. A few moment ago... "Tripoli Libya's Information Minister Mahmoud Shammam said he has confirmed that Col Gaddafi was dead from fighters who said they saw the body. He said he expects the prime minister to confirm the death soon, noting that past reports emerged "before making 100% confirmation."

                        Comment


                        • Sooooooooo , what next , burial at sea :whome:

                          Seriously tho , if its true , good riddance to the bastard .Dinnerjacket ,,TAKE NOTE
                          Last edited by tankie; 20 Oct 11,, 17:18.

                          Comment


                          • I wonder if this would have happened had Mr Gaddafi kept his nuclear and chemical weapons? I think Dinnerjacket is more likely to go for broke AFTER the example of Libya.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                              The pictures of him show him in a bad way
                              Thats normal nuts when some 9 milly goes thro yer napper

                              Comment


                              • So....anyone placing bets on Assad and Ahmadenijad? :Dancing-Banana:
                                "Draft beer, not people."

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