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  • Ah the teachers are the same here and we haven't bombed a country like erm, ever!
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      Well, UK and France are in SC and wrote those resolutions. And BTW bombing Gadaffi is hardly sitting and watching. Too bad UK and French hammers are not as big and heavy as the US one, but that's life :(
      They are using hammers to crack a nut. Bombing is not doing the job so what is the next move..another resolution to put boots on the ground? ;)

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      • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
        They are using hammers to crack a nut. Bombing is not doing the job so what is the next move..another resolution to put boots on the ground? ;)
        Personally, I would go through all the satellite imagery I have and make all the MIs sweat their a$$es to learn Gadaffi's whereabout then send SAS and GIGN(?) to take care. Can't think of cheaper solution. Tho, since its' execution depends on the intelligence I doubt how quick this would happen :)

        Anyway 100 days and counting since operation Libya started
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • NATO and Libya: 100 Days, but any progress?


          Misguided air strikes, civilian casualties, a desperate Libyan ruler still fighting for power with an International Criminal Court indictment issued against him. These are some of the highlights that color the 100 days since NATO began air strikes against Muammar Qaddafi’s forces.

          In February, Colonel Qaddafi swore to “fight until his last drop of blood” for his role as leader amidst mass protests calling for his removal. An element of what has become known as the Arab Spring, these protests called for political freedom and economic opportunities to be encouraged by their non-traditional government.

          On Thursday, the leader’s daughter, Aicha Qaddafi said, that to end the spilling of Libyan blood, “We are ready to ally ourselves with the devil, with the rebel army” during a French network television interview. This would prove a large step forward if sincere.

          Also on Thursday, France admitted to supplying arms to Libyan rebels, propelling the support beyond the agreement in UN Security Council Resolution 1973. France issued statements claiming that the munitions drops were necessary to allow civilians to defend themselves, a step beyond the initial humanitarian food, water and medical supply drops.

          To understand the current situation, it is useful to take a look at Mr. Qaddafi’s ruling history.

          In his 1975 doctrinal Green Book, which doubles as the country’s constitution, Mr. Qaddafi outlined his beliefs on how a socialist society should be run. Paradoxically, statements such as the following appear to justify his dictatorial status by dissolving all typical government bodies by defining democracy quite uniquely: “No representation of the people—representation is a falsehood. The mere existence of parliaments underlies the absence of the people, for democracy can only exist with the presence of the people and not in the presence of representatives of the people.”

          Mr. Qaddafi’s ideology was rooted in convincing his people, often through violent intimidation, that through mere existence that they were being represented in the government. However, that was entirely untrue in his Libya, a nation riddled with corruption and lacking proper institutions.

          Another excerpt from his Green Book sheds light on the economic struggle of Libyans: “Labor in return for wages is virtually the same as enslaving a human being.”

          Essentially, it appears as though he is defending his right to live lavishly while not wanting to “enslave” others through employment initiatives. “Paradoxical” is just one of the words used by political scientists when describing Mr. Qaddafi’s ruling style.

          Responding to Colonel Qaddafi’s violent reaction to protests in mid-February, opposition groups were forced to fight back with limited weapons or training resulting in mass bloodshed and devastation.

          Submission following the beginning of the protests does not appear to have been an option in the minds of the Libyan people.

          Responding to the devastation, some say because of the massive oil and gas fields in Libya, NATO launched airstrikes targeting Mr. Qaddafi and his allies beginning March 2011. The decision followed the passage of a UN Security Council resolution supporting military action against the leader committing violent acts against his people.

          The sentiments caused by NATO’s move to get involved in Libya were two-fold.

          First, a leader was/is brutally repressing his people who are calling for freedom and representation – two things that ring close to NATO member countries’ hearts.

          Conversely, the question has to be asked as to why NATO forces, the Americans in particular, are delving into another potentially long battle after the hurdles and frustrations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

          With regards to energy supply disruptions, Europeans faced more energy shocks than did Americans, relying on Libyan light sweet crude to provide significant volumes to its refineries. Although Saudi Arabia increased its production, the unique, slightly higher quality of Libyan light sweet crude meant it was easier to refine into everyday products such as petrol. Europeans have also turned to Russia to supplement the loss for now.

          Italy consumed about 32 percent of Europe’s 85 percent supply of Libyan oil exports; Germany percent, Italy, percent. The remainder of Libya’s oil exports travelled east through the Suez canal, comprising 3 percent of Chinese oil imports, amongst others.

          In Libya today, it is clear that Mr. Qaddafi will not relinquish his seat of power to the opposition forces. While he could seek safe haven in allied nations, such as North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela, it appears that Mr. Qaddafi will indeed stay and fight until the very last drop of his and his allies’ blood.

          That makes NATO’s job now extremely difficult. A few supportive air strikes have turned into what looks like it will be a long- term commitment, a manhunt to “cut the head off the snake.” As long as Mr. Qaddafi is living in Libya, NATO forces must now continue to support the Libyan people. Sending in ground troops has been discussed though is almost entirely impossible given the military obligations in Iraq and Afghanistan of NATO Allies, and American forces in particular.

          Not just for the returned oil supply but also for the humanity of the Libyan people, efforts in institution building must be taking place concurrently with the battle for freedom.

          The Libyan Interim National Transitional Council (NTC) was established on March 5 in Benghazi by oppositionists to Mr. Qaddafi’s continued rule. The NTC aims to establish peace and security within Libya, avoiding the potential divide of the nation as a means of solving the current crisis.

          The Executive Board of the NTC is led by the chairman, Dr. Mahmoud Jibril, a scholar in strategic planning and decision making from the University of Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania). Board members include Vice Chairman, Dr. Ali Al-Issawi, who holds his doctorate in privitization. Both Drs. Jibril and Al-Issawi served in Mr. Qaddafi’s Libyan government, the former as head of the National Economic Development Board from 2007-10, the latter most recently as Libyan Ambassador to India, a post he held until the uprisings.

          Fourteen international governments (out of 192 member states of the United Nations), including the UAE, Qatar, Australia, France and Germany, have recognized the official representation of the Libyan people by the TNC. Conspicuously missing from the list is the United States of America.

          Following a meeting between Mr. Jibril and US National Security Adviser Tom Donilon in May, Mr. Donilon stated that the United States acknowledged the TNC as “a legitimate and credible interlocutor of the Libyan people.” However, the US did not offer full official recognition explaining that the responsibility and ability to fully legitimize Libyan representatives laid in the hands of the Libyan people, not in those of foreign governments.

          It is important to note that NATO countries had no explicit role in establishing the TNC; however they have been attempting to mediate negotiations between Mr. Qaddafi’s representatives and the TNC. Until now, there have been no fruits to that labor. But Aicha Qaddafi’s recent statement, cited earlier, may indicate there is some hope to the negotiations.

          While oil remains on global minds as they reflect on NATO’s military action in Libya, it is important to look beyond external powers and peer into the significant progress Libyans themselves have made in the face of brutal and merciless attacks from its leader.

          Indeed, it is important to support the Libyan people in their struggle though it is also important for NATO and its member countries to have a long, hard look at the past 100 days and reassess whether their contributions truly appear on the greater landscape of progress.

          (Mary E. Stonaker is an independent scholar, most recently with the Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore. She can be reached at marystonaker@gmail.com)
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
            Not supplying self defence is as bad as watching a massacre and doing nothing about it and as the UN are past masters at that they should leave it to the Military Professionals to sort the solution out.
            And that makes for a nice slippery slope doesn't it. I think you've got a coalition to keep happy. They signed on to those resolutions under certain terms & conditions. You start playing fast & loose with the T's & C's and you will be spending more time justifying your actions to your partners rather than doing your job.

            Hague was asked a while back to place your attorney generals counsel on the matter in the commons library so it could be better understood but to date it has not appeared. No mention in the commons either over this issue this week as yet, lets see if it gets mentioned next week and what the reply is.

            We already discussed this in the NFZ thread a few months back, it was kato i believe that made the point clear.

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            • DE as we know the wheels of Parliament run painfully slow and some politicians even slower. We are fighting to remove Qaddafi from power and are p***y-footing over it. They need to get all the 'paperwork' in place before they decide to remove any further despots in the future. I visualize people sitting around a table saying "shall we - shan't we" People are dying every day so let's sort it out. If we don't like the slippery slope then let's get out. I don't want anymore of our Servicemen, in whatever theatre of war it happens to be, being brought home under a flag while politicians argue about words on a piece of paper. Ask people on the street why we are attacking Libya and the answer is 'to (get rid) remove Qaddafi' asked 'why' and they haven't a clue.

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              • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                DE as we know the wheels of Parliament run painfully slow and some politicians even slower.
                Actually dave, i've got the opposite impression reading your commons transcripts. Not to mention the speed in which they got that resolution, what was it ? under three weeks for France+UK to get 13 other nations to agree or close to it to go from 1970 to 1973.

                Once a week, they'll have a good long discussion about the arab situation. It's been pretty good to keep up with developments. I certainly expect this point to be brought up next week.

                The best part is its free of spin, straight from the horse's mouth. Want to know what Britian thinks about any matter ? this is ground zero.

                Its very easy for news anchors, you could say its their job, to create talking points whilst not having to haggle with others nations for cooperation. You can spin anything.

                Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                We are fighting to remove Qaddafi from power and are p***y-footing over it.
                No you're not, you've got him in a vice grip and you've followed the resolution in spirit and almost to the letter. That's pretty good going.

                You have to keep an eye on the future with present actions. If there's going to be any more resolutions concerning other countries in the area. You need 9 ayes. Everybody's watching how this project is going, you don't want to unnecessarily up the asking price for an abstention by BRIC. You don't want to make this look like yet another western imperialist project.

                Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                They need to get all the 'paperwork' in place before they decide to remove any further despots in the future.
                If we are to live in a more multi-polar world then you are going to have to work for consensus.

                Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                I visualize people sitting around a table saying "shall we - shan't we" People are dying every day so let's sort it out.
                You see something wrong here ? Currently it isn't about dying its about running short on medical supplies & cash for salaries.

                Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                If we don't like the slippery slope then let's get out. I don't want anymore of our Servicemen, in whatever theatre of war it happens to be, being brought home under a flag while politicians argue about words on a piece of paper. Ask people on the street why we are attacking Libya and the answer is 'to (get rid) remove Qaddafi' asked 'why' and they haven't a clue.
                You have no boots on the ground so the chances of anyone coming back under a flag are remote :)

                As to the why its a combination of national interest and humanitarian. The arab world is your hinterland, you have an interest in things not blowing up there.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Jul 11,, 16:21.

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                • Treachery and Hypocrisy in Libya

                  Dov S. Zakheim
                  July 15, 2011

                  It should come as no surprise that the Libyan rebels have committed atrocities in towns they have captured. The Libyan civil war is nothing more than a tribal blood feud, stoked by hatreds, grievances and desires for revenge that go back decades if not longer. In such circumstances it is a fool's errand to determine which of the warring parties has right on its side. That the United States and NATO chose to interject themselves into this conflict is simply incomprehensible.

                  NATO's Libyan adventure is proving costly not merely in terms of human and material losses. Qaddafi’s successful achievement of what is effectively a stalemate to the conflict has seriously damaged the alliance's credibility. NATO has projected an image of disunity and inefficiency at best, incompetence at worst. It is hard to imagine that this was the alliance that faced down the Soviet Union.

                  Moreover, to many in the Arab and Muslim world, the Western attack on yet another Arab state smacks of nothing less than treachery and hypocrisy. After all, Qaddafi had cooperated with the West in the "war on terror." For that Washington, Paris and London rewarded him with drone attacks on his family. On the other hand, Bashar al-Assad's support for Hezbollah has earned him a free pass.

                  Finally, to underscore the fact that no good Libyan deed has gone unpunished, the Western attack has come only a few years after Qaddafi chose to terminate his attempt to obtain nuclear weapons. Iran and North Korea will surely take note. "What if," pundits in Pyongyang and Tehran surely are asking,"Qaddafi had possessed 'the bomb'? Would the West have dared to attack him?" What if, indeed.

                  NATO, aided, abetted and cheered on by Washington, clearly has achieved little and lost much. Surely it is time to terminate this mindless, costly and counterproductive exercise.
                  Winter is coming.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    "most Libyans are strongly pro-Gaddafi" Evidence pls.
                    I can't provide you any reliable statistical research. For some strage reason, statistical services are not working at Libya at the moment. So i will provide witness reports.

                    Libya: Talks Between Gaddafi And Rebels, As Well As US, After Four Months Of Nato Bombing Campaign | World News | Sky News
                    Stuart Ramsay, chief correspondent, in Tripoli

                    In recent days I have been to a handful of western cities and towns where rallies of thousands have gathered to show their support for Gaddafi.
                    In some, they have taken to the streets brandishing a huge collection of weapons clearly handed out to volunteers by the government.

                    What is important is that the many people I have chatted to are absolute in that support.

                    The rallies are organized - but the sentiment, in my opinion, is real.

                    It does not mean that everyone in this part of the country supports Gaddafi, but a lot certainly do.
                    Skipping ritual part about poor rebels being outgunned, this report looks like a balanced view.

                    Aslo, CNN:


                    And one more:
                    Winter is coming.

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                    • Yesterday the very Scud base in Syrt that the RAF claimed destroyed along with 30-40 Scuds and 20 Frogs located there back in May suddenly fires off a Scud. While the coalition claims it's curtailing government troops and supply movements too. Also, at the target the US claims the missile was fired at the RAF claims to have destroyed a number of government-affiliated technicals in close air support only three days ago. Oh, and the RAF has also resumed firing Stormshadows in long-range strike sorties at Sabha last week - which was pretty much discounted from all action four months ago.

                      I'm starting to be reminded of Yugoslavia.

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                      • The smart bombs got dumb? lol
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • The RAF has published a guncam vid and detailed info of that strike against the site at Syrt [here].

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                          • Capable was scrapped due to cuts... only Agile and Adaptable left.

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                            • Libyan rebels capture major military base - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

                              The endgame is in sight
                              Keyboard is mightier than gun

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                              • NATO is a bit more reserved and states that they "can't corroborate rebel claims of having approached Tripolis". NATO also claims that the rebel front line has effectively dissolved and turned into localized pockets btw.

                                That there are clashes in the suburbs is nothing new; these have been going on since February. What's new is the massive losses the rebels are taking there, with three-digit figures in e.g. Tadjura.

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