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The Jamal Khashoggi Case.

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  • #46
    Why Won’t Turkey Release the Khashoggi Tapes?

    The soundtrack to Jamal Khashoggi’s beating, vivisection, and murder lasts just seven minutes, according to Turkish officials who spoke anonymously to several outlets yesterday. By the end of the recording, the screams have subsided, and Khashoggi is dead, although his alleged killer—a Saudi doctor named Salah Muhammed al-Tubaigy—must have continued sawing away at his limbs for some time after. (It takes about two minutes to saw through a human femur with a manual bone saw, and longer than that to dissect the soft tissue around it.)

    I hope never to hear this tape. But I want someone to hear it, and soon. The Turkish officials have leaked details of this operation with frustrating caginess. They promise that the tapes exist, and that they were recorded with Khashoggi’s own Apple Watch. They have shared their account of the tapes with journalists and foreign powers, including the United States—but they have not shared the tapes themselves. It’s time for them to end the steady drip of leaks and reveal the source material. By the descriptions we’ve heard so far, that material must be awfully difficult to fake. You can’t exactly go to Craigslist to hire a Jamal Khashoggi impersonator to scream in Saudi dialect as if his fingers are being chopped off.

    The release of the recording need not be to the general public. It has been described in detail to The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and to government-friendly media from Turkey and Qatar. Play it for those same reporters, and for the ambassadors or delegated officials from any two dozen countries. The mystery of the fate of Khashoggi, and perhaps also of the complicity of Saudi officials like the consul general, Mohammad al-Otaibi, will be resolved in minutes.

    Failure to release the tapes does not mean they do not exist. Turkey has caught a regional rival in a compromising position—with no alibi or coherent strategy to defend itself. By letting one detail slip each day, titrating the dosage of grotesquerie to prolong the headlines, it has turned the likely torture of Khashoggi into a torture of another sort for Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MbS). David Ignatius reported yesterday that MbS has been in a “rage” and a “funk” for days. Even before these calamitous last weeks, rumors circulated in the kingdom of MbS’s possible ouster or assassination. Turkey has prolonged the news cycle to nourish the perception that MbS is crazy and murderous. As if to illustrate how terrible his options are, CNN reported that MbS will acknowledge Khashoggi’s death at the hands of his security services but will attribute it to “rogue” elements. That excuse will, if anyone believes it, replace the perception that he is a crazy murderer with the perception that he is surrounded by crazy murderers he is unable to restrain, potentially including even his own senior diplomats, intelligence officers, pilots, and physicians.

    On Wednesday, President Donald Trump told the AP that he has requested the recording—“if it exists,” he added. His skepticism was ridiculed, but it is not unreasonable. Much remains unexplained about this case. Why didn’t his killers remove Khashoggi’s watch? Why did they kill him in the consulate, the only place in all of Istanbul where their culpability was guaranteed to be detected? They reportedly brought in a DNA expert to clean up the crime scene. Why not just kill Khashoggi as he walked down the street, and spare themselves the trouble of dismembering him and redecorating the consulate? There are easier ways to kill a dissident—especially if you do not intend to interrogate him. That much is clear from yesterday’s leaks: The assassins allegedly clobbered him as soon as he walked in the door, and set to work on him without asking questions.

    All signs point to an assassination by Saudi Arabia. At this point, the slow leakage by Turkey is beginning to feel like a game in which one country is running up the score against another. In diplomacy this happens sometimes, and it is no surprise. But those who value truth should now demand the irrefutable evidence we have been promised, and should grow more skeptical of its existence if those who have profited from whispering about it for the past two weeks cannot produce it.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


    • #47
      Audio Offers Gruesome Details of Jamal Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says

      Saudi agents were waiting when Jamal Khashoggi walked into their country’s consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago. Mr. Khashoggi was dead within minutes, beheaded, dismembered, his fingers severed, and within two hours the killers were gone, according to details from audio recordings described by a senior Turkish official on Wednesday.
      Turkey Details Alleged Killing of Saudi Journalist

      Saudi operatives beat, drugged, killed and dismembered a dissident Saudi journalist in the presence of the kingdom’s top diplomat in Istanbul, Turkish officials said Tuesday, as Washington urged Riyadh to provide answers.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


      • #48
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        I've been trying to figure out what the game plan was. It's more a miscalculation than a botched job.
        KSA didn't figure on their consulate being bugged. Thats the real takeaway, Turkey bugs consulates. Long term Turkey's ability to use this to gather intel is done, everyoen has twigged to it now.


        • #49
          Originally posted by zraver View Post
          KSA didn't figure on their consulate being bugged. Thats the real takeaway, Turkey bugs consulates. Long term Turkey's ability to use this to gather intel is done, everyoen has twigged to it now.
          You're saying the Apple watch is a false flag, and hence the recordings and stuff are all made up from intel due to bugging of the consulate?
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


          • #50
            Originally posted by zraver View Post
            KSA didn't figure on their consulate being bugged. Thats the real takeaway, Turkey bugs consulates. Long term Turkey's ability to use this to gather intel is done, everyoen has twigged to it now.
            You're looking at the bugging angle. Will we ever hear those recordings. I doubt it. Not for the public.

            The Turks are up in arms because it impinges on their sovereignty. The Saudis couldn't care less about that . And so the Turks are showing them up to the world.

            It was done in the consulate because its considered Saudi sovereign territory. They don't do it in a more discrete manner because they don't care what the world thinks. No need. Who will sanction the Saudis ?

            If the Turks let this one go, its open season on all dissidents in Turkey. It means Saudis can go after whoever they want anywhere else as well.

            I wonder what sort of investigation is possible here. Usually perps aren't invited to investigate their own crimes because things don't end up well that way.

            Calls by Lyndsey for MBS to step down.
            Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Oct 18,, 14:49.


            • #51
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              You're saying the Apple watch is a false flag, and hence the recordings and stuff are all made up from intel due to bugging of the consulate?
              What matters is the Saudis believe it. That the Saudis believe the Turks have leverage over them. Whether they actually do is another question.

              How easy is it to bug places these days. SOP means they do sweeps for this sort of thing. That leaves signals intelligence, or what gets transmitted. Saudis have access to secure communications equipment. If they're going to keep tabs on their own people then they have a fair idea of what others are doing to them too.

              Lapses can occur but its the job of every intel agency of any country to know what others are up to when on their own soil.

              We're still back to the same point. Saudi attitude. So what. This is an internal affair and nobody's business. That it occurred in their consulate is for that reason.

              What is the world going to do about this Saudi attitude ?
              Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Oct 18,, 16:28.


              • #52
                Al Al-Ahmed can't get published in the NYT or WAPO. Makes you wonder why they entertained Khashoggi. According to Ali its because Jamal was an insider whereas Ali is a mere dissident with no influence.

                The Disappearance Of Jamal Khashoggi And The Plight Of Saudi Dissidents Come To Light (Op-ed) | Daily Caller | Oct 12 2018

                The disappearance of Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi from Istanbul after visiting the Saudi consulate there on Oct. 2 is disturbing but not surprising to me and other dissident writers and activists who provide a critical view of the kingdom and have paid for it, usually with exile or prosecution of our family members.

                As a Saudi citizen exiled in Washington, D.C., since 2000, I have seen and experienced first-hand what the government is willing to do to silence its critics inside and outside the country. These actions date back to as early as 1979, when dissident activist and author Naser Al Saeed was abducted from Beirut, Lebanon, in December of that year.

                His fate remains unknown, but it is widely believed that that the Saudi intelligence service paid PLO gunmen to kidnap and fly him back to Riyadh, where he was secretly killed. (Ironically, Khashoggi worked for many years with Turki Al Faisal, the man who ran Saudi intelligence at the time and is suspected of carrying out that operation.)

                Opposing the Saudi royal family — especially if you advocate a progressive alternative to the current regime — is a dangerous undertaking, a fact that has never been far from my mind since moving to Washington, D.C., in 2000 after my graduate studies in Minneapolis.

                Once I became a recognized voice for reform and democracy, the Saudi government used carrots and sticks to silence me. In March 2004, the Saudi Embassy seized my passport when I attempted to renew it and offered me a one-way ticket home. The government has since quietly made me a stateless person by rescinding my nationality, which I discovered only when my family tried to process a legal document back home.

                The monarchy has also been trying to convince me to return home since 2002. In 2007, a senior Saudi intelligence officer traveled to Washington to arrange a meeting between former Saudi crown and then head of Saudi intelligence (and brother of the present King), Prince Muqrin bin Abdulaziz, and myself at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Tyson’s Corner.

                Prince Muqrin asked me to return home with a promise of wealth and safety. I responded by asking for a public apology to my parents, and my mother in particular, for putting her in prison. He replied, “The state doesn’t apologize.”

                The government also used Arab nationals to lure me to Malaysia and Lebanon, countries known for handing dissidents over to the Saudi government. I had the good sense to decline these invitations and made the U.S. government aware of them.

                A WikiLeaks document sent in 2013 from the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs to its embassy in Washington (at the time led by the current Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubair) ordered the surveillance of the Institute for Gulf Affairs, an independent think tank that I founded in 2001.

                What’s more, the document accurately noted that the IGA was going through financial challenges — a detail that was known only to me and my staff and which we later learned was leaked to the government by a Saudi national who worked with us for a time and later joined the government.

                In recent months, I have received many phishing emails designed to hack into my account. One of them was particularly disturbing because it illustrated how far the government is prepared to go to silence its critics in Washington. The email included a photo of me attending a public event at the American Enterprise Institute, which could only mean that a government agent reported my presence, extracting my image from a video and sending it to me in a phishing email.

                This past June, the head of The Saudi American Public Relation Affairs Committee, Salman Al Ansari, called me a terrorist after I reported on his links to antisemitism. I responded with a lawsuit, currently being tried in D.C. Superior Court.

                I’ve received dozens of death threats, some of them serious.

                In one case, a young Saudi man told me he would come to Washington to kill me after I tweeted that Crown Prince Mohamed bin Salman was “feeble-minded” for paying $200 billion to build a mega solar project that would supplant China as the world’s leading supplier of solar panels. I gave that information to the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh, and thankfully they denied him a visa.

                The government also tries to coerce me by squeezing my family, a common Saudi tactic. Two of my brothers were arrested, and one of them has been in prison for over 20 years just for being my brother. My nephews were also arrested; one of them has been sentenced to eight years in prison for attending one protest.

                My family — parents, siblings, nephews, cousins, and many relatives and friends — is no stranger to political persecution. Two of my cousins were killed during the 1979 uprising, the first Arab popular uprising. I myself was imprisoned at age 14 and avoided capture narrowly on several occasions by fleeing the country.

                My story is not unique; the Saudi government routinely persecutes other dissidents. Last month, prominent social media star and satirist Ghanem Al Dosary (our own Jon Stewart) was assaulted by several Saudi nationals in front of Harrods, a famed London department store. This attack in broad daylight was captured on video, yet none of the assailants have been arrested and the British government has yet to provide an explanation for its inaction.

                A few weeks ago, a young man in West Virginia contacted me through a mutual friend to seek help with his asylum application. This individual, Mr. Hamad AlSudairi, had been stabbed by a Saudi national after hearing him criticize corruption in Saudi Arabia. Such mild condemnation is sufficient cause for a pro-regime zealot to attempt murder. The case is now before a West Virginia court.

                The forced disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi by the government of Saudi Arabia is an attempt to intimidate other dissidents into silence and/or surrender. Unfortunately for the Saudi regime, history teaches us that despots can never succeed in completely suppressing the voices of freedom.

                Speaking for myself, I can say that I have inherited that spirit of dissent in order to fully empower our people and to establish a modern government with full rights for all. This dream will never die, no matter what the cost. We only have one life, and we must make it worthwhile.

                Ali Al Ahmed is the founder and President of the Institute for Gulf Affairs.


                • #53
                  Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  KSA didn't figure on their consulate being bugged. Thats the real takeaway, Turkey bugs consulates. Long term Turkey's ability to use this to gather intel is done, everyoen has twigged to it now.
                  You got anything to say about this guys murder?

                  I think we must now assume that Khashoggi is dead. One of MBS's bodyguards was at the scene I am told ergo MBS had him killed. Any 'gone wrong interrogation' story does not stand up if you chopped the guy up to get him out in pieces. Nor can we believe any 'report/investigation' into the death (and that fact they are "investigating" means he is dead) the Saudi's come up with. Trumpkin is clearly lying "no business in Saudi" may be partly true but business with them is not - he has a self interest - and is clearly willing and trying to help them find a scapegoat 'rogue actor'. In short it is pretty clear that this a state ordered murder of a critic.

                  Having said that I am conflicted regarding a response. The Saudi's may be unpleasant and inhumane pigs (which I do not mean offensively to their diet) but they are at least partly our dog in the Middle East and leading the fight against an Iranian backed takeover of Yemen and the region in general. It is a case of which is the better of two weevils and the answer is the fattest one and they are alot fatter than Iran. It may mean MBS has to go - lop his head off by their law is normal - but does not have to mean that his ideas and plans necessarily have to go with him. That I think is the moral response that also accords with both Saudi future interests and ours.
                  Last edited by snapper; 19 Oct 18,, 18:29.


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                    The Arab world is facing its own version of an Iron Curtain, imposed not by external actors but through domestic forces vying for power. During the Cold War, Radio Free Europe, which grew over the years into a critical institution, played an important role in fostering and sustaining the hope of freedom. Arabs need something similar. In 1967, the New York Times and The Post took joint ownership of the International Herald Tribune newspaper, which went on to become a platform for voices from around the world.

                    My publication, The Post, has taken the initiative to translate many of my pieces and publish them in Arabic. For that, I am grateful. Arabs need to read in their own language so they can understand and discuss the various aspects and complications of democracy in the United States and the West. If an Egyptian reads an article exposing the actual cost of a construction project in Washington, then he or she would be able to better understand the implications of similar projects in his or her community.

                    The Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. More important, we need to provide a platform for Arab voices. We suffer from poverty, mismanagement and poor education. Through the creation of an independent international forum, isolated from the influence of nationalist governments spreading hate through propaganda, ordinary people in the Arab world would be able to address the structural problems their societies face.
                    i'm thinking Poland circa early 80's with the solidarity movement and CIA involvement.

                    Problem with this idea ? its seeking to usher in an alternative govt. The world likes its oil plentiful and cheap.

                    Maybe Al Jazeera is the answer.

                    Makes the point that the voice of 2m Qataris resounds louder across the world than that of 30m suppressed Saudis.

                    Qatar is the contemporary Arab equivalent of 1980's Poland ?
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Oct 18,, 18:33.


                    • #55
                      The skeletons are tumbling out of the closet one by one.

                      ‘They Took Them Quietly. All of Them Are in Jail Today.’ | FP (podcast) | Oct 19 2018

                      It's not possible for Saudi women to go to hell. You cannot go to hell twice (!)


                      • #56
                        Badra's take. He's got the Turkish side of the equation down pat. Turks have done well with media management and letting the Saudis know they are a threat to Turkish national security. Apparently there was even an uncovered Saudi-UAE plot to assassinate Erdogan.

                        As well as the Saudi one. Opponents that were sidelined or oppressed by MBS are now looking for payback by getting him sidelined. MBS otoh is going to want t consolidate further.

                        I don't get the CIA angle though. Why the CIA would be upset with the Turk reveals ? if anything they should be upset with the Saudis for creating this mess in the first place. The CIA would then be caught off guard as well as other officials who spoke and lobbied for MBS. This affair is an embarrassment to them.

                        It does in a way put the heat on Saudi - US relations. The Saudi press (and press is important here as opposed to any Saudi official) have said any sanctions would lead to about thirty steps of which
                        - not increasing oil output to make up for the Iranian drop, let oil prices rise to whatever, threatening western economies when winter is about to set in
                        - not using the dollar and instead selling in some other currency ie yuan. Threatening the western banking system.
                        - pulling out all investments amounting to $800 odd bn they have with the US.
                        - provides an opening for the Russians by offering them a base and mentioning the place

                        Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Oct 18,, 00:38.


                        • #57
                          Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi killed in Istanbul consulate: State media

                          That's it, folks. The show has ended.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


                          • #58
                            Jamal Khashoggi's body parts found in Saudi consul general's home: Report

                            The body parts of murdered dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi have been found at the Saudi consul general's home in Istanbul, a UK-based broadcaster reported on Tuesday.

                            According to Sky News, the 59-year-old Washington Post contributor's body had been "cut up" and his face "disfigured", with the remains found in the garden of the consul general's home.
                            Who kills a dissident inside their own embassy, in a different country? This is childish planning or MBS' henchman were so drunk on power that they thought they could get away with anything.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


                            • #59
                              Turkey's Erdogan Says Saudi Arabian Officials Planned Jamal Khashoggi's Murder Days Before His Death

                              ANKARA, Turkey — Saudi officials murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi in their Istanbul consulate after plotting his death for days, Turkey’s president said Tuesday, contradicting Saudi Arabia’s explanation that the writer was accidentally killed. He demanded that the kingdom reveal the identities of all involved, regardless of rank.

                              President Recep Tayyip Erdogan also said he wants Saudi Arabia to allow 18 suspects that it detained for the Saudi’s killing to be tried in Turkish courts, setting up further complications with the Saudi government, which has said it is conducting its own investigation and will punish those involved. Saudi Arabia has described the suspects as rogue operators, even though officials linked to Saudi Arabia’s assertive Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman have been implicated in the killing.

                              “To blame such an incident on a handful of security and intelligence members would not satisfy us or the international community,” Erdogan said in a speech to ruling party lawmakers in parliament.

                              “Saudi Arabia has taken an important step by admitting the murder. As of now we expect of them to openly bring to light those responsible — from the highest ranked to the lowest — and to bring them to justice,” said the Turkish president, who used the word “murder” 15 times in his speech.

                              Erdogan’s speech was previously pitched as revealing the “naked truth” about Khashoggi’s slaying. Instead, it served merely to put a named source to information already circulated by anonymous officials and the Turkish press in the days since the columnist for The Washington Post walked into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

                              Erdogan didn’t mention Prince Mohammed by name in his speech. However, he kept pressure on the kingdom with his demands for Turkish prosecution of the suspects as well as punishment for the plot’s masterminds.

                              “All evidence gathered shows that Jamal Khashoggi was the victim of a savage murder. To cover up such a savagery would hurt the human conscience,” he said.

                              Erdogan mentioned information that was earlier leaked by Turkish sources, including reports of 15 Saudi officials arriving in private jets shortly before Khashoggi’s death as well as a man, apparently dressed in the writer’s clothes, acting as a possible decoy by walking out of the consulate on the day of the disappearance.

                              “Why did these 15 people all with links to the event gather in Istanbul on the day of the murder? We are seeking answers. Who did these people get their orders from to go there? We are seeking answers,” Erdogan said. “When the murder is so clear, why were so many inconsistent statements made? Why is the body of a person who has officially been accepted as killed still not around?”

                              International skepticism intensified after Saudi Arabia said on Saturday that Khashoggi died in a brawl. The case has shocked the world and raised suspicions that a Saudi hit squad planned Khashoggi’s killing after he walked into the consulate on Oct. 2, and then attempted to cover it up.

                              Before Erdogan’s announcement, top Turkish officials said Turkey would clarify exactly what happened to Khashoggi as pressure increased on Saudi Arabia, which is hosting a glitzy investment conference this week that many dignitaries have decided to skip because of the scandal.

                              “As we all know these are difficult days for us in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia,” Energy Minister Khalid Al-Falih told attendees seated in an ornate hall during the opening of the conference in Riyadh.

                              “Nobody in the kingdom can justify it or explain it. From the leadership on down, we’re very upset of what has happened,” Al-Falih said

                              Saudi Arabia said it arrested suspects and that several top intelligence officials were fired over Khashoggi’s killing, but critics alleged that the punishment was designed to absolve Prince Mohammed, the heir-apparent of the world’s top oil exporter, of any responsibility. Any major decision must be signed off by the highest powers within its ruling Al Saud family.

                              On Monday, leaked surveillance video showed a man strolling out of the diplomatic post hours after Khashoggi disappeared into the consulate, apparently wearing the columnist’s clothes as part of a macabre deception to sow confusion over his fate.

                              The new video broadcast by CNN, as well as a pro-government Turkish newspaper’s report that a member of Prince Mohammed’s entourage made four calls to the royal’s office from the consulate around the same time, put more pressure on the kingdom. Meanwhile, Turkish crime-scene investigators swarmed a garage Monday night in Istanbul where a Saudi consular vehicle had been parked.

                              Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister, meanwhile, said Tuesday the investigation into the killing of Khashoggi would produce the truth about what happened and that his country was committed to ensuring “that the investigation is thorough and complete and that the truth is revealed and that those responsible will be held to account.”

                              Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir, in Indonesia, also pledged that mechanisms will be put in place so that “something like this can never happen again.”
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!


                              • #60
                                Now, Murder of Jamal Khashoggi 'premeditated': Saudi prosecutor
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!