Welcome to Bentopia

[Parihaka]

As you can see from my previous post/link the most often cited objection from the Palestinian side is recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, whilst insisting the Palestinian state exclude Jews. By default the latest UN initiative, along with the countries who voted for it, recognises the future Palestine as excluding Jews.

[InExile]

As you can see from my previous post/link the most often cited objection from the Palestinian side is recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, whilst insisting the Palestinian state exclude Jews. By default the latest UN initiative, along with the countries who voted for it, recognises the future Palestine as excluding Jews.

I agree that doesn't sound fair. If any settlers choose to remain in the West Bank after a Palestinian state has been formed; it will up to the Palestinians to ensure their safety. Just as Israel is responsible to ensure the safety of the Arabs in Israel.

That said I think sanctions are a legitimate way to pressure Israel to end the occupation (beyond what is needed for security) and continued settlement activity in the West Bank.

[Parihaka]

I agree that doesn't sound fair. If any settlers choose to remain in the West Bank after a Palestinian state has been formed; it will up to the Palestinians to ensure their safety. Just as Israel is responsible to ensure the safety of the Arabs in Israel.

That said I think sanctions are a legitimate way to pressure Israel to end the occupation (beyond what is needed for security) and continued settlement activity in the West Bank.

So you're in agreement with ethnic cleansing of Jews from the West Bank? That is after all the PA's stated position, whereas Israel has proposed no such ethnic cleansing of Israeli Arab/Moslems, even those who choose not to accept Israeli citizenship.

[S2]

Double Edge Reply

"The diplomats say all solutions offered to date have been sub-optimal and more pressure needs to be exerted on both parties..."

Yes. It is what "...diplomats..." say. Nevermind the generalization of diplomats but who, if not diplomats, are responsible for sixty-five years of sub-optimal solutions?

"There is an inherent problem here. The parties are not equals, Israel commands a position of strength and is arguing from that position. What does the weaker party do ? refuse"

Israel earned its position of strength by defeating attacks made from accumulated enemies on the field of battle in 1967 and 1973. You would have them level the field by giving back that which cost blood and treasure while providing a stronger basis of defense than held in 1967? Of course, had their enemies succeeded there'd still be an unequal relationship. Palestine would be the lackey of victorious arab states and Israel would exist not at all.

"...The hardliners and fanatics on both sides get empowered and hijack the conversation and the cycle continues."

The hardliners on the Palestinian line have ALWAYS held the power. It is a kleptocracy that has fully with-held any meaningful internal discourse. Fatah became complacently smug with their personal enrichment through theft. What's increasingly rendering them irrelevant and now replacing them is spiritually more pure and altogether more malevolent. The entire populace is now reconciled to that view and fully radicalized. Fatah's notorious past is too-easily dismissed today only because of the demagogic narrative generated by HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH and ISLAMIC JIHAD.

By comparison the Israeli hard-right are childish simpletons.

[InExile]

So you're in agreement with ethnic cleansing of Jews from the West Bank? That is after all the PA's stated position, whereas Israel has proposed no such ethnic cleansing of Israeli Arab/Moslems, even those who choose not to accept Israeli citizenship.

I think I just said the opposite.

[Parihaka]

I think I just said the opposite.

OK, given your objection to ethnic cleansing, and given that the PA is determined to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and any other areas they can lay their hands on of Jews, why is it then you wish to lay sanctions upon Israel?

[InExile]

OK, given your objection to ethnic cleansing, and given that the PA is determined to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and any other areas they can lay their hands on of Jews, why is it then you wish to lay sanctions upon Israel?

If the Palestinians allow violence to come to any Jews left on their territory after a peace settlement they will held accountable for it. I am sure with Israel right next door they would think twice.

Regarding sanctions, I feel Israel has no business being in the West Bank beyond what it absolutely needs for its security. I think the settlements are illegal, but some of them have grown into cities, and I know Israel cant give them up. But regardless of what the Palestinians do or dont; Israel must end the occupation.

[Parihaka]

If the Palestinians allow violence to come to any Jews left on their territory after a peace settlement they will held accountable for it. I am sure with Israel right next door they would think twice.

Regarding sanctions, I feel Israel has no business being in the West Bank beyond what it absolutely needs for its security. I think the settlements are illegal, but some of them have grown into cities, and I know Israel cant give them up. But regardless of what the Palestinians do or dont; Israel must end the occupation.

So you're vehemently opposed to S2's notion of ethnic cleansing, but sanguine about the PA doing it, believing it's up to Israel to sort that out post event.
You're equally determined to sanction Israel because it's occupying the West Bank but regard as irrelevant that the PA has refused every offer Israel has made to withdraw, based on the fact they refuse to recognize a Jewish state.

Is that a fair summation?

[JAD_333]

Checking around to see what the PA's official policy is on cleansing Jews from a Palestinian state, it seems there is no such policy, at least in the public record. There is, however, an 2011 interview with the PA's ambassador to the UN in which he stated:

“I’m not saying to transfer every Jew, I’m saying transfer Jews who, after an agreement with Israel, fall under the jurisdiction of a Palestinian state,” he said then. “I think this is a very necessary step, before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities, and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know you have to think of the day after.”

Asked after the Tuesday breakfast to clarify if he was truly calling for a Jew-free state, Areikat said that perhaps one day in the future things will be different.

“Listen, again, we have nothing against Jews. This is a political conflict,” he explained. “Once the political issues our resolved, every Palestinian should be welcomed in Israel. Every Israeli should be welcomed in Palestine. But under the current circumstances — an occupation power occupying a people against their will — this is something we are trying to end.”

Read more: Palestinian ambassador reiterates call for a Jew-free Palestinian state | The Daily Caller


A week later the PA rushed to clarify its position:

Palestinian officials are rolling out the welcome mat for Jews to come to a new Palestinian state.

Trying to tamp down a controversy over whether a Palestinian state would be Jew-free, Mahmoud Habbash, the Palestinian minister of religious affairs, said a future state would be open to people of all religions, including Jews.

“The future Palestinian state will be open to all its citizens, regardless of their religion,” Habbash said, according to USA Today. “We want a civil state, which in it live all the faiths, Muslim, Christian and Jews also if they agree, (and) accept to be Palestinian citizens.”

Maen Areikat, the Palestine Liberation Organization’s ambassador to the United States, told POLITICO that his comments earlier this week which some interpreted as meaning Jews would not be welcome were misconstrued.

“In no way was there a suggestion that Jews cannot enter Palestine or be in Palestinian state in the future,” Areikat said.

Read more: Palestinian officials: Jews welcome - Josh Gerstein and MJ Lee - POLITICO.com

Apparently the PA recognized the hypocrisy in demanding the right-of-return of Palestinians to Israel while barring Jews from a future Palestinian state. But even so, the ambassador was not calling for a permanent ban on Jews, just a cooling-off period until relations between Israel and Palestine reach a harmonious state.

[InExile]

So you're vehemently opposed to S2's notion of ethnic cleansing, but sanguine about the PA doing it, believing it's up to Israel to sort that out post event.
You're equally determined to sanction Israel because it's occupying the West Bank but regard as irrelevant that the PA has refused every offer Israel has made to withdraw, based on the fact they refuse to recognize a Jewish state.

Is that a fair summation?

No that is an unfair characterization. If the Palestinians expelled the Jews by means of violence from the territories I would it find equally abhorrent. However, as a practical matter how much of an issue is it really? I mean compared to S2's scenario of forcibly expelling more than 2 million people. A vast majority of the settlers will probably end up within the borders of Israel after the main settlement blocks are annexed. Those that remain would probably be in the lower ten thousands. How many of these settlers would choose to live among the Palestinians whom they hate? They wouldn't have the same privileges they enjoy now. That said, if any choose to remain, it must be made clear to the Palestinians that violence against the Jews will not be tolerated.

I consider the occupation of the West Bank to be a moral wrong in itself; therefore yes, I think sanctions against Israel are justified regardless of what the Palestinians do or have done in the past. Israel has the right to protect itself from extremist groups in the territories like Hamas, but that's pretty much it.

[Parihaka]

I'll see your ambassador's 'misinterpreted' statement and raise you an Abbas

“I’m willing to agree to a third party that would supervise [an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement], such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land,”
Abbas, Cairo on 28 July 2010

and the Abbas appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

“The hour of judgment will not come until you fight the Jews… The Jews will hide behind the stone and behind the tree. The stone and the tree will cry, ‘Oh Muslim, Oh Servant of God, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”
Mufti's Call to Kill Jews "Unsurprising" - Middle East - News - Israel National News

[zraver]

I'll see your ambassador's 'misinterpreted' statement and raise you an Abbas

“I’m willing to agree to a third party that would supervise [an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement], such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces,

Israel doesn't conscript Muslims for the IDF...

or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land,”
Abbas, Cairo on 28 July 2010

Why should an Israeli be allowed to live on Palestinian land, that would simply extend the occupation. Israeli being a nationality not a religion.

[bigross86]

Israel doesn't conscript Muslims for the IDF...

Wrong. The IDF conscripts both Druze (quasi-Muslim) and Bedouins.

Why should an Israeli be allowed to live on Palestinian land, that would simply extend the occupation. Israeli being a nationality not a religion.

Why should a Palestinian be afforded a right to return that doesn't exist and isn't rooted in international law (as you yourself agreed to a while back) and allowed to live on Israeli land? Palestinian being a nationality, not a religion.

You have criticized the Israeli immigration policy, granting immediate access to Israel to all Jews, and criticized that same policy that wouldn't allow Palestinians to emigrate to Israel. So now, according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for Palestinians to disallow Israelis living in "Palestine", even an practicing Muslim Israeli-Arab who wishes to live in Palestine, but it's not acceptable for Israel to not allow Palestinians in?

Just like Abbas, you seem to have mastered the skill of talking out of both sides of your mouth

[S2]

InExile Reply

"...If the Palestinians expelled the Jews by means of violence from the territories I would it find equally abhorrent. However, as a practical matter how much of an issue is it really...? "

Gee, when you put it that way when has history suggested it's NOT been an practical issue to forcibly expel Jews regardless of the numbers involved. You've just been presented a slide (that you've not disputed) indicating just how thoroughly Jews have been vacated from Magreb through the Levant to Mesopotamia. All since 1948.

Not a peep from the averted eyes of the entire world.

You've just read JAD_333's quote from the Palestinian Ambassador To The U.N calling for ethnic cleansing to accomodate a "cooling-off" period. You know...once things settle down to peace ever-after?

No. The real point here is that Israel's sole raison d'être has been a final redoubt for internat'l Jewry. So it should be...behind defensible borders and among those who can be trusted when your back is turned.

[JAD_333]

I consider the occupation of the West Bank to be a moral wrong in itself; therefore yes, I think sanctions against Israel are justified regardless of what the Palestinians do or have done in the past. Israel has the right to protect itself from extremist groups in the territories like Hamas, but that's pretty much it.

What morality are you applying to make that judgement? Taken as a whole since 1948, the thrust from the Arab world has been to topple Israel. True, the behavior of Israel over that time has sometimes been rough and perhaps unwarranted. But the fact remains, Israel's actions have by and large been influenced by external threats. Are those threats moral in your scheme of things?