Originally posted by tbm3fan
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US Ambassador to Libya Killed in Rocket Attack
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All I can see in the American press is that Obama/Clinton are terribly sad, had their photos taken with the corpses and Romney is a bastard.
Do you know that the rescue force was ambushed? The rest of the world does.
Which is entirely irrelevant to the US Ambassador being killed in a planned attack, the US forces sent to rescue him being ambushed on the way, and his only protection prior to the attack being subcontracted to a Libyan militia.
Having 'profound respect for people of all faiths' (as long as they're not an Egyptian Coptic filmmaker ) doesn't seem to be working out too well.
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If I'm being sarcastic its just me wondering what planet have you lived on to be surprised the story has played out this way...Last edited by troung; 15 Sep 12,, 23:57.To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway
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Originally posted by dave lukins View PostWas that not in response to the 11century Islamic wars on Christianity? Over the first 10 years of the 11th Century over 30,000 churches were destroyed by Muslim aggressors.
Christianity hasn't declared war on IslamNo such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by troung View PostIf I'm being sarcastic its just me wondering what planet have you lived on to be surprised the story has played out this way...
"Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
Attached FilesIn the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Doktor Reply
"Were those actions holy wars blessed by a religious leader or armies conquering and annihilating whatever on their way?"
How do you think 30,000 churches were destroyed? Yes. It was very much a holy war. They call it, I believe, JIHAD. Do you think that was all which was destroyed? Islam rode a wave of ascendancy over the top of the N. African Berbers and into Visigoth Spain and, beyond, southwestern France. They were checked at Constantinople but, clearly, that wasn't the final word.
It was a clash of civilizations and it's, distasteful or otherwise, going to reoccur unless moderate muslims determine that they will not permit their religion to be usurped by a virulent element of their society.
Others will have no choice but to defend their way of life and, as we all know, the best defense is a good offense."This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostThey
The Imams Committee of the Michigan Muslim Community Council also has officially condemned the killing of Ambassador Stevens in Libya.
The imams do support our freedoms, but also denounce the abuse of such privileges, including the promotion of hatred via inflammatory literature, movie or speech by individuals or groups. Such actions by all extremists must not be allowed to damage the emerging freedoms in the Middle East and peaceful co-existence everywhere. We urge all Muslims to peacefully oppose any provocative or aggressive acts against their faith.
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Originally posted by dave lukins View PostOver the first 10 years of the 11th Century over 30,000 churches were destroyed by Muslim aggressors.
Conquest of Castilia, Leon, Barcelona = concluded with death of Abi Al-Mansur, 1002 AD.
Virtual Collapse of Umayyad Califate = 1016 AD.
Conquest of Anatolia by Seljuks = 1071 AD.
Gregor VII pondering to reconquer Jerusalem = 1074 AD.
Peace between Constantinople and the Seljuks = 1078 AD. (= shelving of above plans)
Independence of the Rum Sultanate from the Seljuks = 1081 AD.
War between Rum Sultanate and Seljuks = ca 1084-1086 AD.
Calls by Alexios to conquer weakened Rum Sultanate, offer to unite churches = ca 1091ff AD.
First Crusade = called 1095 AD by Urban II, executed 1096-1099 AD.
The motivation for the First Crusade was Urban II attempting to reunite the Catholic and the Orthodox church under his banner, while establishing the church as a superpower with directive supremacy over the former Carolingian fiefdoms north of Italy. He was successful in the latter part of his mission, not so much in the first part.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostSorry BF but there is no condemnation there except of those engaged in freedom of speech. Not one word for the dead Americans, none spared for the need for diplomats to be inviolable and the defense of freedom was directly contradicted by the rest of the blurb..... Mikayla face.... not impressed
(Royal Oak, MI, 9/12/11) – The Imams’ Council of the Michigan Muslim Community Council condemns in the strongest terms the killing of the US Ambassador Christopher Stevens in Libya and other embassy staffers. Islam strictly prohibits the killing or harming of diplomats and civilians under any circumstance.
Such violence is against the Islamic teachings and the spirit of the Holy Qur'an. The Qur’an teaches, “If anyone slays a human being unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind...” (5:32)
On behalf of the imams and the Muslim community we offer our condolences and deepest sympathy to the family of Ambassador Stevens and other victims of violence as we pray for peace and a world free of hate and bigotry.
The imams do support our freedoms, but also denounce the abuse of such privileges, including the promotion of hatred via inflammatory literature, movie, or speech by individuals or groups. Such actions by all extremists must not be allowed to damage the emerging freedoms in the Middle East and peaceful co-existence everywhere. We urge all Muslims to peacefully oppose any provocative or aggressive acts against their faith.
MMCC Condemns Violence and Ambassador's Killingsigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostWere those actions holy wars blessed by a religious leader...
Originally posted by Doktor View PostIt is exactly what the pope did.
On another note,I noticed serious delusions in this thread.
1. That somehow(no idea how) ''some'' of the Muslims have a good image of America.Those some may be in single digits percents.
2.That Libyans have a good image of America.Shall I remind you that half the population of that country LOST the civil war?
3.Also noticed are the eternal excuses:''not all'',''imams apologized'',''religion of peace'' and so on.There is a certain degree of ignorance(to put it mildly).Not unexpected from a certain part and one that is closely connected to a certain worldview.Last edited by Mihais; 16 Sep 12,, 06:30.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by kato View PostYou might want to recheck your timeline. It wasn't that that it was a response to.
Conquest of Castilia, Leon, Barcelona = concluded with death of Abi Al-Mansur, 1002 AD.
Virtual Collapse of Umayyad Califate = 1016 AD.
Conquest of Anatolia by Seljuks = 1071 AD.
Gregor VII pondering to reconquer Jerusalem = 1074 AD.
Peace between Constantinople and the Seljuks = 1078 AD. (= shelving of above plans)
Independence of the Rum Sultanate from the Seljuks = 1081 AD.
War between Rum Sultanate and Seljuks = ca 1084-1086 AD.
Calls by Alexios to conquer weakened Rum Sultanate, offer to unite churches = ca 1091ff AD.
First Crusade = called 1095 AD by Urban II, executed 1096-1099 AD.
The motivation for the First Crusade was Urban II attempting to reunite the Catholic and the Orthodox church under his banner, while establishing the church as a superpower with directive supremacy over the former Carolingian fiefdoms north of Italy. He was successful in the latter part of his mission, not so much in the first part.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by zraver View PostSorry BF but there is no condemnation there except of those engaged in freedom of speech. Not one word for the dead Americans, none spared for the need for diplomats to be inviolable and the defense of freedom was directly contradicted by the rest of the blurb..... Mikayla face.... not impressed
He goes on to write, "I cant talk about the greatness, nobility, mercy and amazing character of the prophet in a single post. For this reason I've posted this amazing book about the biography of the prophet." Not a single mention of the pointless blood spilled over this issue! There is clearly something very wrong here. The levels of morality are clearly not the same, as a certain book, and it's prophet, clearly seem to take precedence over the value of human life! I do not anymore feel the handful of clerics or Muslims condemning the terrorist acts as a wholehearted effort. One question which I would like to put to all Muslims claiming to be "moderates"; Do they hold human life to be more valuable than the sanctity of their book and their prophet?Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
-Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry
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Originally posted by tbm3fan View PostAs to your comment see above. Luckily you don't have that right to unilaterally decide what is good behavior and what is not and then pass a sentence simply because you didn't like it.
In my world, good behavior does not include purposefully setting the table for murder and mayhem against my family, my friends, and my fellow citizens.sigpic
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Originally posted by S2 View Post"Were those actions holy wars blessed by a religious leader or armies conquering and annihilating whatever on their way?"
How do you think 30,000 churches were destroyed? Yes. It was very much a holy war. They call it, I believe, JIHAD. Do you think that was all which was destroyed? Islam rode a wave of ascendancy over the top of the N. African Berbers and into Visigoth Spain and, beyond, southwestern France. They were checked at Constantinople but, clearly, that wasn't the final word.
Then, may I kindly ask the name of the religious leader who ordered the destruction of the churches and the start of the jihad?
It was a clash of civilizations and it's, distasteful or otherwise, going to reoccur unless moderate muslims determine that they will not permit their religion to be usurped by a virulent element of their society.
Others will have no choice but to defend their way of life and, as we all know, the best defense is a good offense.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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While problems (some severe others not so much) have indeed occurred at US and other Western embassies and consulates around the world due to the YouTube (read global) posting of an anti-Mohammad production, this is not what happened in Libya.
The attack on the US Consulate and subsequent mortar attack on the "safe house" in Benghazi were tactically planned and executed on a military par. It is also apparent to me that these tactical-planners had inside intelligence information.
This may upset some people here, but so be it. I am coming to the hard and unpleasant conslusion that the US Department of State was, at a bare minimum, negligent.
Consider some things...
1) Although there has been no comment on this by any US DoS/DoD officials, there are numerous reports that the US Marine contingent in Cairo fielded weapons that contained no ammunition - Barney Fife Marines
2) There was no unruly mod (or any protest that I am aware of) at the US Embassy in Tripoli where Ambassador Stevens usually resides
3) No Marine/security contingent accompanied the ambassador to Benghazi
4) Despite the countdown to the anniversary of 9/11, no DoS upgrades in security occurred in either Tripoli or Benghazi. This, despite the fact that in Benghazi:
a) On June 6, an IED was thrown at the perimeter of the U.S. Consulate
b) On June 11, the British ambassador's motorcade came under attack by a rocket-propelled grenade and two security personnel were injured (the Brits subsequently left Benghazi)
c) On June 18, armed gunmen attacked the Tunisian Consulate and burned its flag
d) On August 5, the International Committee of the Red Cross building in Benghazi was struck by RPGs
In virtually all countries in the ME, US Embassies are protected by US Marines. Security at Consulates (such as Benghazi) is awarded to private contractors (such as DynCorp and Aegis) via a Worldwide Protective Services Agreement (WIPS). This was not the case in Benghazi. A few local militiamen were contracted for protection. Their effectiveness? They fled when the compound was breached. A big fat 0 enemy killed or wounded.
Re-reading this thread, it strikes me that what really occurred in Libya is not being appreciated in any military manner. Speaking plainly, Benghazi was a lax-security ass-kicking.
If I were an American citizen, I would seriously begin to question the politico-cover-our-ass prattle that is emanating from Washington.sigpic
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