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  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    If it had been as simple as that - just Syrians left to themselves - Assad would be gone now. It is not and therein lies the greater danger of what may yet come if Assad remains a puppet dictator to the Iranian Mullahs and Putin. Mark my words if Syria is surrendered because it is "none of our business" that is not the end of the war. It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.
    Aha yes the Domino Theory. One of the greatest tools of foreign intervention in the 20th Century.

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  • snapper
    replied
    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.
    If it had been as simple as that - just Syrians left to themselves - Assad would be gone now. It is not and therein lies the greater danger of what may yet come if Assad remains a puppet dictator to the Iranian Mullahs and Putin. Mark my words if Syria is surrendered because it is "none of our business" that is not the end of the war. It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.

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  • XLAdept
    replied
    Yet their young men have fled to Europe.

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  • Ironduke
    replied
    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.
    Agreed.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Indeed I know Nietzsche well and the book you quote from is Beyond Good and Evil. It is hardly gazing into any abyss though to uphold international law in the name of peace - even if it means war in the short term. We fooled ourselves too long with the Putin regime; now Ukraine suffers. Yet you seem content to let a mass murderer in control of Syria in the hope that will be the end of it? It's not ever their "last territorial claim". Face it now or when it reaches you but by then many of those who would have been your allies may have fallen as you said "none of my business".

    My generation were given a good chance by those who sacrificed all in the last century - and those who were prepared to during the Cold War. It is a debt I never forget. Poland is free because of those who served and Ukraine is only where it is today as well. Liberty is not free; it comes with a cost. You have to fight bullies for it. It is a Polish tradition to do so - every generation rebelled during the times Poland didn't exist and more often during the Communist occupation. It runs in our blood almost and we have sayings like "Za naszą i waszą wolność" (For our freedom and for yours). The Ukrainians have caught the fever too - 2004 Orange Revolution, 2014 Revolution of Dignity. When your supposed 'Government' shoots at the people - Lech Wałęsa was involved in the 1970 protests but did better in the 1980s.. Nor do I think your average Syrian is much different from me or you. Sure they may worship God differently but they want peace and liberty just as much. They certainly do not want their children gassed and barrel bombed. Those who do such things are criminals and unless we want them to encroach on us or raise the hopes of other wannabe dictators to do the same with our delicate liberties we must oppose them in every manner possible. That is me passing on the chance of a better world that I was given thanks to the service and sacrifice of those who came before me in like manner to those who will follow me.
    White Man's Burden is a defunct and dangerous idea.

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  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.

    Leave a comment:


  • snapper
    replied
    Indeed I know Nietzsche well and the book you quote from is Beyond Good and Evil. It is hardly gazing into any abyss though to uphold international law in the name of peace - even if it means war in the short term. We fooled ourselves too long with the Putin regime; now Ukraine suffers. Yet you seem content to let a mass murderer in control of Syria in the hope that will be the end of it? It's not ever their "last territorial claim". Face it now or when it reaches you but by then many of those who would have been your allies may have fallen as you said "none of my business".

    My generation were given a good chance by those who sacrificed all in the last century - and those who were prepared to during the Cold War. It is a debt I never forget. Poland is free because of those who served and Ukraine is only where it is today as well. Liberty is not free; it comes with a cost. You have to fight bullies for it. It is a Polish tradition to do so - every generation rebelled during the times Poland didn't exist and more often during the Communist occupation. It runs in our blood almost and we have sayings like "Za naszą i waszą wolność" (For our freedom and for yours). The Ukrainians have caught the fever too - 2004 Orange Revolution, 2014 Revolution of Dignity. When your supposed 'Government' shoots at the people - Lech Wałęsa was involved in the 1970 protests but did better in the 1980s.. Nor do I think your average Syrian is much different from me or you. Sure they may worship God differently but they want peace and liberty just as much. They certainly do not want their children gassed and barrel bombed. Those who do such things are criminals and unless we want them to encroach on us or raise the hopes of other wannabe dictators to do the same with our delicate liberties we must oppose them in every manner possible. That is me passing on the chance of a better world that I was given thanks to the service and sacrifice of those who came before me in like manner to those who will follow me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ironduke
    replied
    I'll leave you with another adage. Nietzsche.

    He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

    As with anything, one can take it or leave it. I find it's sage advice.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 07 Apr 18,, 20:14.

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  • snapper
    replied
    Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
    Timurids, late 1300s/early 1400s. There's always a devil worse than the one you know.
    If you wish to call the Timurids Mongol successors I can concede that. Not the direct heirs of Genghis though. Nor can I hope to fight the devils I do not know. It's not our job to decide what the future might be. The problems our children or grandchildren may face none can see. Worse evils may arise - or greater good. But for them to have the best possible chance it is our duty to defeat those evils we know of.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Actually the Mongols were defeated at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260 and later driven back from Syria
    You don't want to lecture me on Mongol-Turkic history.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    - but hey just facts.
    So what? That was just another start of another round of endless butchering.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    As for myself I prefer a better, safer world for those who come after me rather than "peace in my time" for my own 'quality of life' or whatever. I do not compromise with tyrants or mass murderers; there can be none. It is us or them and if you do not understand that it is because you are fortunate enough for your family not have experienced it. "Sic semper tyrannis" is not just a saying. It is a war if need be.
    Fine. You go after them and don't lecture us about staying home. We've done our share and then some.

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  • Ironduke
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Actually the Mongols were defeated at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260 and later driven back from Syria - but hey just facts.
    Timurids, late 1300s/early 1400s. There's always a devil worse than the one you know.

    I'd be more than glad to discuss this in the historical forum. :-)

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  • snapper
    replied
    Actually the Mongols were defeated at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260 and later driven back from Syria - but hey just facts. As for myself I prefer a better, safer world for those who come after me rather than "peace in my time" for my own 'quality of life' or whatever. I do not compromise with tyrants or mass murderers; there can be none. It is us or them and if you do not understand that it is because you are fortunate enough for your family not have experienced it. "Sic semper tyrannis" is not just a saying. It is a war if need be.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Wake Up! The problem was there long before North America belonged to the Vikings. Thbe only time the area was at peace was under the Mongols when they slaughtered whole cities and their armies collected 300 heads per soldier. We tried for 10 years to bring peace and prosperity from Iraq to Afghanistan and all they still wanted to do was to butcher each other.

    You want to send your child into that mess, that's your preorgative but I'm not going to bleed for a bunch of murdering fucks anymore.

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  • snapper
    replied
    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Good. Now imagine anyone tearing that baby away from you on somebody else's crusade.
    It is for those who come after us that we must strive now. It is all well and fine saying "it's not my problem" and technically you may even be right but a problem not dealt with at the start just grows; the Rhineland was re-occupied when? You think Assad is going to be content having murdered just his own people? The Shia Crescent - from the Afghan border to the Mediterranean is on but that won't end it. There are dangers in acting and in not acting but if you do not act to enforce international law do not be surprised when others stick two fingers up at it and that leaves a far more dangerous world for our children and theirs.
    Last edited by snapper; 07 Apr 18,, 15:46.

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  • Ironduke
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    To leave the murderous Assad regime in power is contrary to every international or moral law. The lot of them belong at the court in the Hague and to allow them to continue in power encourages other would be mass murderers.
    The Venetians, Genoans, etc. once used their galleys to rescue many tens or more of thousands of Turks back in the 1300s, Dunkirk-style, from the beaches of Anatolia and the Levant, and while I don't recall exactly from whom it was, it was either the Mongols or the Timurids.

    The adage was, "better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."

    disclaimer: I don't mean to apply this adage literally to the example of Assad. It's just an adage.

    This principle of "better the devil you know" is why we (the US) intervened on behalf of Iraq and the Gulf Countries in the 1980s. Iran under the Ayatollah was the devil we didn't know. And by later removing a devil we knew, Saddam Hussein, combined with the Iraqi refusal to extend SOFA past 2011, this had the unintended consequence of the creation of a devil we didn't know. We spent trillions on the Iraq War and thousands of American lives were lost, and what did we get for the blood and treasure spent? An Iranian proxy/puppet state and ISIS. This principle also stays the hand of countries like Jordan, for Assad is the devil they know. For the most part, Jordan is no longer overtly intervening in the war in Syria, at least not as overtly or to the degree they were a few years ago.

    Yes, Assad is one of the most terrible goddamned people on the planet. But there are literally people waiting to chop the heads off of every secularist, Christian, Druze, Ala'wite, Shi'ite, Sufi, and even every non-Wahabbi Sunni in that country. Or burn them alive in cages. Or throw them off of buildings.

    There are far worse devils than Assad lurking in Syria, and half-measures, quarter-measures, and tenth-measures aren't going to be enough. Unless a multi-national coalition were to form with the political will and means to deploy 2 or 3 million troops, invest hundred of billions in reconstruction aid, and oversee free and fair elections, everything short of that is for all practical purposes an empty gesture, counter-productive, or could lead to severe unintended consequences and blowback. It's better to use what means we have at our disposal as a scalpel, rather than a bludgeon.

    Now if the GCC countries and Turkey want to team up and deal with Assad, by all means, they can have at it. We (the United States and NATO) were there to defeat ISIS. My opinion is to leave this problem to the local actors, either they'll clean up their own neighborhood or they won't.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Apr 18,, 04:46.

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