Syrian Civil War Developments

[Officer of Engineers]

Actually the Mongols were defeated at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260 and later driven back from Syria

You don't want to lecture me on Mongol-Turkic history.

- but hey just facts.

So what? That was just another start of another round of endless butchering.

As for myself I prefer a better, safer world for those who come after me rather than "peace in my time" for my own 'quality of life' or whatever. I do not compromise with tyrants or mass murderers; there can be none. It is us or them and if you do not understand that it is because you are fortunate enough for your family not have experienced it. "Sic semper tyrannis" is not just a saying. It is a war if need be.

Fine. You go after them and don't lecture us about staying home. We've done our share and then some.

[snapper]

Timurids, late 1300s/early 1400s. There's always a devil worse than the one you know.

If you wish to call the Timurids Mongol successors I can concede that. Not the direct heirs of Genghis though. Nor can I hope to fight the devils I do not know. It's not our job to decide what the future might be. The problems our children or grandchildren may face none can see. Worse evils may arise - or greater good. But for them to have the best possible chance it is our duty to defeat those evils we know of.

[Ironduke]

I'll leave you with another adage. Nietzsche.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

As with anything, one can take it or leave it. I find it's sage advice.

[snapper]

Indeed I know Nietzsche well and the book you quote from is Beyond Good and Evil. It is hardly gazing into any abyss though to uphold international law in the name of peace - even if it means war in the short term. We fooled ourselves too long with the Putin regime; now Ukraine suffers. Yet you seem content to let a mass murderer in control of Syria in the hope that will be the end of it? It's not ever their "last territorial claim". Face it now or when it reaches you but by then many of those who would have been your allies may have fallen as you said "none of my business".

My generation were given a good chance by those who sacrificed all in the last century - and those who were prepared to during the Cold War. It is a debt I never forget. Poland is free because of those who served and Ukraine is only where it is today as well. Liberty is not free; it comes with a cost. You have to fight bullies for it. It is a Polish tradition to do so - every generation rebelled during the times Poland didn't exist and more often during the Communist occupation. It runs in our blood almost and we have sayings like "Za naszą i waszą wolność" (For our freedom and for yours). The Ukrainians have caught the fever too - 2004 Orange Revolution, 2014 Revolution of Dignity. When your supposed 'Government' shoots at the people - Lech Wałęsa was involved in the 1970 protests but did better in the 1980s.. Nor do I think your average Syrian is much different from me or you. Sure they may worship God differently but they want peace and liberty just as much. They certainly do not want their children gassed and barrel bombed. Those who do such things are criminals and unless we want them to encroach on us or raise the hopes of other wannabe dictators to do the same with our delicate liberties we must oppose them in every manner possible. That is me passing on the chance of a better world that I was given thanks to the service and sacrifice of those who came before me in like manner to those who will follow me.

[Gun Grape]

Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.

[Officer of Engineers]

Indeed I know Nietzsche well and the book you quote from is Beyond Good and Evil. It is hardly gazing into any abyss though to uphold international law in the name of peace - even if it means war in the short term. We fooled ourselves too long with the Putin regime; now Ukraine suffers. Yet you seem content to let a mass murderer in control of Syria in the hope that will be the end of it? It's not ever their "last territorial claim". Face it now or when it reaches you but by then many of those who would have been your allies may have fallen as you said "none of my business".

My generation were given a good chance by those who sacrificed all in the last century - and those who were prepared to during the Cold War. It is a debt I never forget. Poland is free because of those who served and Ukraine is only where it is today as well. Liberty is not free; it comes with a cost. You have to fight bullies for it. It is a Polish tradition to do so - every generation rebelled during the times Poland didn't exist and more often during the Communist occupation. It runs in our blood almost and we have sayings like "Za naszą i waszą wolność" (For our freedom and for yours). The Ukrainians have caught the fever too - 2004 Orange Revolution, 2014 Revolution of Dignity. When your supposed 'Government' shoots at the people - Lech Wałęsa was involved in the 1970 protests but did better in the 1980s.. Nor do I think your average Syrian is much different from me or you. Sure they may worship God differently but they want peace and liberty just as much. They certainly do not want their children gassed and barrel bombed. Those who do such things are criminals and unless we want them to encroach on us or raise the hopes of other wannabe dictators to do the same with our delicate liberties we must oppose them in every manner possible. That is me passing on the chance of a better world that I was given thanks to the service and sacrifice of those who came before me in like manner to those who will follow me.

White Man's Burden is a defunct and dangerous idea.

[Ironduke]

Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.

Agreed.

[XLAdept]

Yet their young men have fled to Europe.

[snapper]

Then the Syrians need to do it themselves. They have to want freedom more than I want to give it to them. Its theirs to take not mine to give with the blood of my people. They have to earn it with their blood.

If it had been as simple as that - just Syrians left to themselves - Assad would be gone now. It is not and therein lies the greater danger of what may yet come if Assad remains a puppet dictator to the Iranian Mullahs and Putin. Mark my words if Syria is surrendered because it is "none of our business" that is not the end of the war. It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.

[Gun Grape]

If it had been as simple as that - just Syrians left to themselves - Assad would be gone now. It is not and therein lies the greater danger of what may yet come if Assad remains a puppet dictator to the Iranian Mullahs and Putin. Mark my words if Syria is surrendered because it is "none of our business" that is not the end of the war. It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.

Aha yes the Domino Theory. One of the greatest tools of foreign intervention in the 20th Century.

[Ironduke]

If you wish to call the Timurids Mongol successors I can concede that. Not the direct heirs of Genghis though. Nor can I hope to fight the devils I do not know. It's not our job to decide what the future might be. The problems our children or grandchildren may face none can see. Worse evils may arise - or greater good. But for them to have the best possible chance it is our duty to defeat those evils we know of.

There's another old saying.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm sure Bush the Younger had the absolute best of intentions in invading Iraq. Yet for all the trillions of dollars spent and thousands of lives lost, what we got was an Iranian puppet state and ISIS.

[Officer of Engineers]

If it had been as simple as that - just Syrians left to themselves - Assad would be gone now. It is not and therein lies the greater danger of what may yet come if Assad remains a puppet dictator to the Iranian Mullahs and Putin. Mark my words if Syria is surrendered because it is "none of our business" that is not the end of the war. It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.

Wonderful. You're against Assad, the Mullahs, and Putin but praising the people who wants to put bombs on our streets. You do what you want with those fucks. We'll just let them keep killing each other.

[Gun Grape]

It is maybe the end of the end Christian Syrians (some of whom still speak Aramaic) and the Kurdish Syrians but what do think happens in Lebanon after? And then Israel maybe? How many lives do they have to lose for liberty - in 2016 the UN estimated 400,000 dead, 22m have been 'displaced' by some reports. To fight against a criminal dictatorship is right - to fight against three dictatorial regimes is heroic. To wash one's hands of their fight because "it's their problem - not mine" only delays the problem reaching your shore.

Well let me see. Had to take a break, for a Skype conversation with my son half way around the world.

Syria went into Lebanon in the 1950s and we intervened. Then in the 80s Israel went into Lebanon and we went in to separate everyone. I went there twice between 1982 and 1984. Saw my best friend shot and 11 other friends die.
Then in 2006 we had to intervene again.Now we are in Syria.

Maybe we just quit trying to pacify the region and let them work it out among themselves then deal with the aftermath. People in that area have been killing each other for centuries. We are not going to stop it. Once the people there get tired of it, then it will quit.

How many lives do they have to lose for liberty? However many it takes. How many more lives do you want us lose for them to decide that they want to coexist?

[Ironduke]

Indeed I know Nietzsche well and the book you quote from is Beyond Good and Evil. It is hardly gazing into any abyss though to uphold international law in the name of peace - even if it means war in the short term.

Sometimes even in the name of upholding international law - one can become the very monster they're fighting, or an even worse monster, and inadvertently create monsters that would have otherwise never come into existence.

Concerning international law and its application, do you remember what you wrote about Germany imposing its will on other EU nations on matters such as the euro, immigration, etc?

With regards to Syria, we did our bit. ISIS has but a toehold left in the extreme reaches of the Euphrates in southeastern Syria. It's too bad about the Kurds, there's some genuinely good people among them and they've gotten a lot of bad breaks, but that being said, this is now a problem for Turkey, Jordan, the Saudis, et al to solve. US can act as an offshore balancer or come in with a scalpel for surgically precise operations if need be, and use our diplomacy to influence the actions of others and deter bad behaviour, but it's time to pull back and let the locals sort this problem out.

Finally, even the US has limits to its power and influence. It's not as if we have quadrillions of dollars and a 500 million man army to run around and solve all the world's problems.

[Officer of Engineers]

Trump is pissed off.

Syria chemical attack: Trump threatens "Animal Assad," Putin after suspected chemical