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  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    All oil that Daesh steals in Iraq passes through Turkey and from there elsewhere. so the Turks are in some way supporting Daesh. If the Turkish border to Syria was shut then this Daesh problem goes away much sooner.

    Senior syrian officials have interests in trucking that transport this oil to Turkey.

    The Russians are bombing these oil tankers.

    In the future the Turks want a compliant sunni regime in Syria so the Qatari's can build a gas pipeline to Turkey which Turkey can then pass on to the Euros. So Al nusra is considered a moderate faction. Qatar supports al nusra.

    This is the angle ?
    The 'angle' in this specific instance is exactly what it appears to be. Ankara is supporting ethnic Turks for reasons that have more to do with nationalism than commerce. Erdogan just won an election by hammering the Kurds & ratcheting up the 'national security' rhetoric. The Turkmen are part of this & so is acting tough toward Russia. The Turkmen have actually been fighting Daesh, as well as the Kurds and Assad.

    To the extent that Turkish actions help Daesh that is temporary & tactical. I see the commitment to ethnic Turks & opposition to Kurds as being in an entirely different realm.
    sigpic

    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
      If the F-22 got close enough sure, but all emissions weaken with distance. Since the F-22 will always be 50% closer to the emissions than the receiver it controls how much energy reaches it.
      I thought I post this article Zraver which tries to explain what I was saying to you
      Of particular interest to the Russians, no doubt, is the F-22 Raptor,...........The U.S. has been using the F-22 ever since. What better way to improve SA-22 operability and its software than for it and other Russian intelligence organizations to monitor the operations of the F-22 and other aircraft in a highly active conflict zone? The information obtained can be put to use enhancing improving tracking algorithms, air defense capabilities, and understanding of coalition weapons that are engaging in close air support and precision air strikes
      Link
      I think it would be foolish of the US to be still flying the F-22 in Syrian theatre.
      Last edited by Zinja; 04 Dec 15,, 00:56.

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      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
        There is one Christian militia fighting in Syria that I know (I met a guy who went off to join them) of but almost all of the community is or was in Jordan. How many of these minorities do you estimate there to be still in Syria? More than 250,000? By some accounts Assad has already murdered more than that number. He is the foremost recruiter for Daesh and until he goes the Syrian people can never rid themselves of the nutfreaks.
        26-30% of the population was non-Sunni before the war, that percentage is higher in government controlled areas now as most of the refugees from them are sunni. In rebel and ISIS controlled areas the percentage has shrunk as the refugees from those areas are non-Sunni.The war is creating stark ethnic stratification. A multi-cultural Alawaite dominated area, a Salfist Sunni dominated area and the newst province of the de-facto Kurdistan.

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        • Originally posted by Zinja View Post
          I thought I post this article Zraver which tries to explain what I was saying to you
          Link
          I think it would be foolish of the US to be still flying the F-22 in Syrian theatre.

          Unfortunately your article has it exactly backwards in what the F22s are doing in Syria. As mentioned before radar emissions are picked up on ESM syse at double the range of detection. So that means if an S400 has a 250 mile detection range (which is most certainly won't against an F22) then the F22s extremely sophisticated ESM system can see those S400 emissions 500 miles away.

          That is what the F22 is doing, its collectioning signals intelligence on the Russian systems. It's actually extremely foolish of the Russians to put their best systems In Syria. Now the west can develop methods to jam them.

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          • Originally posted by Fastam View Post
            Unfortunately your article has it exactly backwards in what the F22s are doing in Syria. As mentioned before radar emissions are picked up on ESM syse at double the range of detection. So that means if an S400 has a 250 mile detection range (which is most certainly won't against an F22) then the F22s extremely sophisticated ESM system can see those S400 emissions 500 miles away.

            That is what the F22 is doing, its collecting signals intelligence on the Russian systems. It's actually extremely foolish of the Russians to put their best systems In Syria. Now the West can develop methods to jam them.
            Actually, that makes sense; which system is doing the emitting? Probably not the F-22; it should be able to get most of the information it needs from passively vacuuming up all of the stray electrons flying around the battle space. Even if it does emit, the LPI radar will most likely not be detected. The system that does need to emit, so that it can evaluate the battle space and illuminate target(s), is the S300/400. And, as you say, I'm sure the F-22 can "see" the S300/400 from much further away than the S300/400 can see it; supposedly, target detection range for the S400 is ±600km, whereas the passive (vs active) detection range of the AN/APG-77 is probably double that.
            "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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            • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
              Actually, that makes sense; which system is doing the emitting? Probably not the F-22; it should be able to get most of the information it needs from passively vacuuming up all of the stray electrons flying around the battle space. Even if it does emit, the LPI radar will most likely not be detected. The system that does need to emit, so that it can evaluate the battle space and illuminate target(s), is the S300/400. And, as you say, I'm sure the F-22 can "see" the S300/400 from much further away than the S300/400 can see it; supposedly, target detection range for the S400 is ±600km, whereas the passive (vs active) detection range of the AN/APG-77 is probably double that.
              What if one suddenly falls due to some sort of a failure?
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                What if one suddenly falls due to some sort of a failure?
                Probably not much Doc. I imagine that in a few year's time we'll discover that Israel or Pakistan have already flogged off all the details of the F-22 to Russia anyway. ;-)
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  What if one suddenly falls due to some sort of a failure?
                  "Draft beer, not people."

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                  • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                    Actually, that makes sense; which system is doing the emitting? Probably not the F-22; it should be able to get most of the information it needs from passively vacuuming up all of the stray electrons flying around the battle space. Even if it does emit, the LPI radar will most likely not be detected. The system that does need to emit, so that it can evaluate the battle space and illuminate target(s), is the S300/400. And, as you say, I'm sure the F-22 can "see" the S300/400 from much further away than the S300/400 can see it; supposedly, target detection range for the S400 is ±600km, whereas the passive (vs active) detection range of the AN/APG-77 is probably double that.
                    The AN/ALR-94 system doesn't just intercept radar emissions either. It's 30 sensors spread out all over the aircraft can pick up radio coms GPS signals ect. Due to the wing span it can also triangulate an emitters postion. They system is accurate enough that it can be used to guide a AIM120. Without ever turning on the APG77.



                    Those F22s are cruising around outside the battle space soaking up all the Russian emissions. It's an intelligence boon.

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                    • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      Probably not much Doc. I imagine that in a few year's time we'll discover that Israel or Pakistan have already flogged off all the details of the F-22 to Russia anyway. ;-)
                      You forgot those pesky Chinese hackers ::-)
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fastam View Post
                        Unfortunately your article has it exactly backwards in what the F22s are doing in Syria. As mentioned before radar emissions are picked up on ESM syse at double the range of detection. So that means if an S400 has a 250 mile detection range (which is most certainly won't against an F22) then the F22s extremely sophisticated ESM system can see those S400 emissions 500 miles away.

                        That is what the F22 is doing, its collectioning signals intelligence on the Russian systems. It's actually extremely foolish of the Russians to put their best systems In Syria. Now the west can develop methods to jam them.
                        Its not just the F-22, that region is full to overflowing with data gathering capability. It also works both ways, the S-400 battery has a radio data transmissions sniffing truck attached to it for passive RF detection, is a huge part of the S-400 operating doctrine.
                        In Syria, there are a lot of Bulldogs sniffing each others butts right now :P
                        "Liberty is a thing beyond all price.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                          Historically that's the case, up until Russia became involved. Now the generals are screaming at Obama because Putin looks like he'll have a major Mediterranean base, both Naval and Air.
                          The US military stated right off the bat that Putin`s plan was to build bases in Syria and put up an air defence bubble in the Eastern Med in the same way he has put up in the Black Sea.
                          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ble-over-syria
                          Thats A2/AD number 3. The first is the Baltic , traditional , the Black Sea and then the Eastern Med.



                          A top Russian military spokesman has said ;
                          "“Russia may end up having one massive military base in Syria, which would be shared by the Navy, the Air Forces and the Ground Forces,” Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, chief of operations of the Russian Army General Staff said yesterday.
                          http://www.defenseworld.net/news/143..._Base_in_Syria


                          They have started expanding the second air base already....
                          https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...6d2_story.html
                          What Russia will end up with is a decent forward operating base which can handle TU-22s and Blackjacks plus Naval units including Subs, I am betting.

                          The single S-400 complex isn't a threat to anyone at the moment other than to the Turks, but what if Assad and Putin decide one day to say, "Excuse me NATO, can you please stop flying over Syria"? What could we do other than to comply?
                          For now I dont think this would be beneficial to Putin, he wants a seat as an equal at the top table, direct confrontation with NATO isn't on his agenda right now but Putin has shown how reactionary he can be.

                          The price of survival for Assad in making his deal with the devil is a very large permanent foreign military presence in his country, something he has always resisted.
                          The pieces are falling into place.
                          "Liberty is a thing beyond all price.

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                          • Originally posted by Tin Man View Post
                            The US military stated right off the bat that Putin`s plan was to build bases in Syria and put up an air defence bubble in the Eastern Med in the same way he has put up in the Black Sea.
                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ble-over-syria
                            Thats A2/AD number 3. The first is the Baltic , traditional , the Black Sea and then the Eastern Med.



                            A top Russian military spokesman has said ;
                            "“Russia may end up having one massive military base in Syria, which would be shared by the Navy, the Air Forces and the Ground Forces,” Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, chief of operations of the Russian Army General Staff said yesterday.
                            http://www.defenseworld.net/news/143..._Base_in_Syria


                            They have started expanding the second air base already....
                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...6d2_story.html
                            What Russia will end up with is a decent forward operating base which can handle TU-22s and Blackjacks plus Naval units including Subs, I am betting.

                            The single S-400 complex isn't a threat to anyone at the moment other than to the Turks, but what if Assad and Putin decide one day to say, "Excuse me NATO, can you please stop flying over Syria"? What could we do other than to comply?
                            For now I dont think this would be beneficial to Putin, he wants a seat as an equal at the top table, direct confrontation with NATO isn't on his agenda right now but Putin has shown how reactionary he can be.

                            The price of survival for Assad in making his deal with the devil is a very large permanent foreign military presence in his country, something he has always resisted.
                            The pieces are falling into place.
                            hi guys! I don't think that attack on the NATO aircraft in Syrian skyies is what VVP really willing to do.... He wants to prevent NATO/Coallition aircraft from engaging Syrian Army and SAF, and that his aircraft has all the freedom to bomb whatever they feel like boming that day... from internet we can learn that right now they have 8 launchers and 2 radar complexes => around 40 missiles ready for attack. This is not really enough to survive a massive attack which NATO may deliver in that part of the Medditerranean sea. A salvo of 100-120 Tomahawk is something which US NAVY can deliver in that part of the Medderranean sea.... and this is enough even when system is protected by Patnsir and TORM1 short range SAMs.

                            And Russian purpusefully did not increase its stakes by brining more of S-400 and TORM1 into the theatre.... they are not to engage NATO there. And Russia DID NOT EVEN attempt to close the Syrian sky for anyone.... but Turks.... even Turks are not CLEARLY prohibited to fly there....

                            This does not seem to be an activity to deter NATO/Coallition AF from Syrian sky... it is rather an argument that these AF does not bomb Syrian Army and engage SAF and RAF in Syrian sky.

                            Purely DEFENSIVE.
                            ____________

                            as for the air/naval base in Syria. Guys, is it really good thing to have this base so close to Turkish territorry where NATO can place tactical missiles? how to defend this base from short range missiles? Assymetric case not in favor of Russian base - it is easier to put more short range missile batteries than to defend from them!
                            Last edited by Garry; 11 Dec 15,, 12:00.

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                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              All oil that Daesh steals in Iraq passes through Turkey and from there elsewhere. so the Turks are in some way supporting Daesh. If the Turkish border to Syria was shut then this Daesh problem goes away much sooner.

                              Senior syrian officials have interests in trucking that transport this oil to Turkey.

                              The Russians are bombing these oil tankers.

                              In the future the Turks want a compliant sunni regime in Syria so the Qatari's can build a gas pipeline to Turkey which Turkey can then pass on to the Euros. So Al nusra is considered a moderate faction. Qatar supports al nusra.

                              This is the angle ?
                              Yea, that is the angle. Problem for us, however, lies in the part that goes from Turkey to Euros as it flows close to our borders. Since Balkan Muslims have plans for territorial expansion to our land (Kosovo,Macedonia and Montenegro) or pure desire for ethnic cleansing (Bosnia) this course of events places us in great danger as we know that the West fully supports their efforts since their efforts are useful for the Western agenda, which is not a surprise because their existence and their agendas were part of Western geopolitical agenda. Just today Federica Mogherini said that the Dayton agreement, the one that ended War in Bosnia, can (and will be) changed. This happened after yesterday, Bosnian Federal police seized a police station in Republika Srpska, the Serbian part of Bosnia, which prompted an reaction the very same day, in which Republika Srpska ceased all cooperation with Federal institutions. We know that the West wants us out of the picture and that it doesn't care in which way, aka it doesn't care if we are killed by Muslims or ethnically cleansed by them. And that raises certain concerns among us...It is the same old British "containment" strategy from the 19th century, passed on to Americans.
                              Nothing new, really...

                              And in addition, by knowing how British play, I don't think that Putin is what most of the Westerners are thinking that he is. I think that he is a Western product and that he is the greatest danger for Russia. The minute I've stopped counting on Russian help for us, that very minute things became crystal clear.
                              Last edited by Versus; 11 Dec 15,, 22:17.

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                              • Once the corridor is formed for the Qatari pipeline, efforts will be made to cleanse Serbs from Bosnia and in the same time a mixture of migrants and Albanian+Sanjak Muslim unrest will push Serbia in turmoil. Without an army to defend its sovereignty it will have only one option and that is to abandon the territories that are populated with Albanians and Muslims. Once that is done, a corridor will be formed, the Green traversal will come to life, enabling the flow of Qatari natural gas to Europe. Europe will than populate that space with migrants which will act as a human shield for the pipeline. Any attempt of Serbia to regain control over the lost territory will be foiled with the reaction from the Middle East, as they can shuffle millions to defend their endangered brothers in the Balkans. Serbia will most likely wither away, as it will be left outside of the Eu and combined pressure of Muslims expansion and Eu/US enablers will push the population further inland. Like that, housewife in southern Wales will be able to save one quid on her gas bill, American stock brokers will earn for another kilo of cocaine to inhale and everything will be fine, dandy and profitable and progressive knowing that Russians can never set their foot on the Balkans.
                                Last edited by Versus; 12 Dec 15,, 00:02.

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