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  • Originally posted by S2 View Post
    That's a convenient rationale. Parihaka's point is well-taken and you're vulnerable to another case of selective reasoning. The Palestinians fought at the behest of their Jordanian masters and, when proven a threat to the Hashimite Kingdom, were ejected altogether. Woe be, though, the Israelis were they to resort to the same tactic utilized so thoroughly by the Jordanians upon their Palestinian breathren.

    He asked, I answered. In 64 when the PLO was formed, most Palestinians had been born in areas of pre-47 mandate Palestine. The first ranks of military age men born outside that area were just beginning to reach adult hood.

    In the rest of if I assume you mean Black September. Talk about double standards, Israel has attacked how many different countries and conducted operations in how many more while going after the PLO?

    To their credit the Israelis haven't. Why, I don't know? Ejecting Palestinians seems a commonly-accepted practice among the arabs.
    Actually Israel did...

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    • gents, a reminder to keep it clean. attack the issue not the man.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        frankly, that's been the security policy of israel since 1967. without the intervention of the US, the USSR would have wiped israel off the map without a second thought, and israel couldn't have done a damn thing to stop it.

        for that matter, this has been the security policy of NATO since the beginning, despite all the wails of the europeans otherwise. that's why the US had REFORGER for decades.

        by the way, note the genius of the US foreign military sales policy; the way it is set up, both israel and the arab states are now largely dependent on the US-- the arab states even more so than israel, which is exactly the way the US wants it.
        Something was bugging me about this and then it struck me, the US cannot take care of her treaty obligations and Israel at the same time. Hell, we were running out of ammo for Libya. Imagine the US fighting North Korea and having to supply Israel at the same time.

        For better or for worst, NATO comes first, Israel comes second.

        Comment


        • col yu,

          Hell, we were running out of ammo for Libya. Imagine the US fighting North Korea and having to supply Israel at the same time.
          frankly we advise all partner nations about the importance of acquiring appropriate ammo stocks...advice that is routinely ignored. worst offenders, ironically-- israel and south korea, precisely because they think any war involving them will involve the US, and they can mooch off US supplies then. if this is something nations want to skimp on, well, they'll just have to take a risk about how the US prioritizes things if/when there's simultaenous conflicts.

          For better or for worst, NATO comes first, Israel comes second.
          of course.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
            He asked, I answered. In 64 when the PLO was formed, most Palestinians had been born in areas of pre-47 mandate Palestine. The first ranks of military age men born outside that area were just beginning to reach adult hood.
            What you are and conveniently continue to ignore is the fact Palestinians of the West Bank attacked Israel, negating your oft made claim that they weren't agressors therefore their land couldn't be forfeit in a war.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
              What you are and conveniently continue to ignore is the fact Palestinians of the West Bank attacked Israel, negating your oft made claim that they weren't agressors therefore their land couldn't be forfeit in a war.
              You're confusing the two terms, probably on purpose. Israel was the aggressor, people fighting to regain their homes can't be an aggressor. Do you consider the french, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs and Poles who fought on the side of the allies in WWII aggressors?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                You're confusing the two terms, probably on purpose. Israel was the aggressor, people fighting to regain their homes can't be an aggressor. Do you consider the french, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs and Poles who fought on the side of the allies in WWII aggressors?
                I consider the Palestinians on the West Bank crossing the border into Israel to attack Israelis throughout the time between 48 and 67 aggressors. You obviously don't, yet rave about the contemporary attacks by Israel settlers on Palestinians. Biased much Zraver?
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  gents, a reminder to keep it clean. attack the issue not the man.
                  Sorry Eric but when the best he can do when I point out his bullshyt is dance around claiming victim hood and saying I'm a nazi and would happily send Palestinians to the gas chambers the hate filled little moron gets zero respect from me, period.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • Zraver Reply

                    "...In the rest of if I assume you mean Black September. Talk about double standards, Israel has attacked how many different countries and conducted operations in how many more while going after the PLO? "

                    Nonsensical evasion ignoring Israel's right to self-defense. Jordan purged the PLO and its adherents as threats to their own way of life. Arab governments throughout the middle east have repeatedly displayed a thorough disdain for the Palestinian people but for their utility against Israel.

                    "...Actually Israel did..."

                    ACTUALLY, Israel didn't lest you'd lose any basis for arguing on behalf of a occupied people. By any PRACTICAL standard long-practiced in Araby, Israel woud be entirely justified in ejecting the Palestinian people altogether from territories captured in war and repopulating the entire west bank and Gaza with Israeli citizens.

                    Placed in boats and cast adrift in the Mediterranean we'd quickly and easily see what nations (if any) would open their doors to their muslim brothers.
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • Sir,if I were to take any Israel&Palestine discussion seriously(which I won't),I'll also ask which nation will receive the ~8 millions Israelis if it ever comes for them the change neighborhoods. :)
                      Fighting is a tricky bussines,it may end either way.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        I consider the Palestinians on the West Bank crossing the border into Israel to attack Israelis throughout the time between 48 and 67 aggressors. You obviously don't, yet rave about the contemporary attacks by Israel settlers on Palestinians. Biased much Zraver?
                        Israeli settlers are there illegally in violation of treaty obligations Israel is a party to, and that Israel knows she is in violation of. Those settler attacks are attacks by an illegally transplanted occupation population and are terrorist actions. As are current cross border attacks in to Israel. However strikes on the illegal populations in the territories given those illegal populations attacks on the native Palestinians are nothing more than just deserts.

                        Sorry Eric but when the best he can do when I point out his bullshyt is dance around claiming victim hood and saying I'm a nazi and would happily send Palestinians to the gas chambers the hate filled little moron gets zero respect from me, period.
                        I've answered every point you've asked me to, its not my fault that your position is morally bankrupt and racist. Its actually rather funny to see you act all offended about the gas chamber comment. After all you accused me of basically the same thing vis a vis the Jews with your ghetto comment. Perhaps you should either A- grow a thicker skin, B- move out of your glass house before throwing stones.

                        S-2,

                        Nonsensical evasion ignoring Israel's right to self-defense. Jordan purged the PLO and its adherents as threats to their own way of life. Arab governments throughout the middle east have repeatedly displayed a thorough disdain for the Palestinian people but for their utility against Israel.
                        In the context of PLO fighters born in what is now Israel and fighting to regain their homes it is not non-nonsensical. Israel did engage in ethnic cleansing in 48. Those people, the ones who were forced out (not their decedents) had every right to try and regain their homes just as much as the peoples of Occupied Europe did in WWII.

                        ACTUALLY, Israel didn't lest you'd lose any basis for arguing on behalf of a occupied people. By any PRACTICAL standard long-practiced in Araby, Israel woud be entirely justified in ejecting the Palestinian people altogether from territories captured in war and repopulating the entire west bank and Gaza with Israeli citizens.

                        Placed in boats and cast adrift in the Mediterranean we'd quickly and easily see what nations (if any) would open their doors to their muslim brothers.[/quote]

                        Actually Israel did, Mandate Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan and Tunisia to name the most prominent countries attacked by Israel.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          I've answered every point you've asked me to, its not my fault that your position is morally bankrupt and racist. Its actually rather funny to see you act all offended about the gas chamber comment. After all you accused me of basically the same thing vis a vis the Jews with your ghetto comment. Perhaps you should either A- grow a thicker skin, B- move out of your glass house before throwing stones.
                          LOL, blah blah blah "Racist", blah blah blah "Nazi", blah blah blah 'Want to gas the Palestinians', blah blah blah.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                            LOL, blah blah blah "Racist", blah blah blah "Nazi", blah blah blah 'Want to gas the Palestinians', blah blah blah.
                            A or B, you painted yourself into a corner without any help from me.

                            Comment


                            • Remember fellows, let's keep it cool here.

                              Accusations of racism, Nazism, antisemitism etc will NOT be tolerated.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                A or B, you painted yourself into a corner without any help from me.
                                As someone who supports a solution where everyone takes responsibility, yes. I feel it's a good corner to take.

                                I realize that is anathema to you and your only solution is a ghetto-ization of the evil Israelis. Good luck with that.
                                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                                Leibniz

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