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  • Mirko R
    replied
    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    So let me ask you a question: Are you willing to listen to facts and the truth, or take what you read in an article that's highly slanted against Israel for granted?

    So, let's begin: Yes, the IDF shot some protestors yesterday. Last I've read is that 3 people died. Yes, the IDF did drop the ball yesterday and not have enough forces available at first to deal with the problem.

    However:

    First of all, the IDF needs to be commended for quick thinking on the local commander's part. He ordered his forces to act with much restraint, and when they finally needed to open fire, they shot in the air or at knee level to try and keep people from crossing the fence. The fact that people died is regrettable, but don't forget that these protestors crossed a live minefield and started tearing down the fence on an international border.

    By all rights, the IDF could have done the same thing the Lebanese army did and shoot to kill. These people were trying to illegally cross an international border of a country that is extremely hostile to us, if not at war with us, still. The IDF could have employed marksmen and taken shot after shot towards center mass. After the first couple dozen died, the rest might have gotten the message. However, the IDF instead decided to go against it's better judgment, do everything possible to avoid casualties and is still lambasted in the world press.

    So now, ask yourself the following question: Like Netanyahu said last night, if the Palestinian people can't control themselves one day a year, how do you expect them to govern an entire country on their own? The Palestinian leaders do not desire peace. They don't desire a two-state solution. They desire the complete and total destruction of Israel and yesterday they once again proclaimed their statements for the world to hear.
    First of all, I would like to begin by saying that I agree with you, the IDF did what it had to do...THIS TIME. But this problem did not originate with these protesters, this problem has been going on for the last 80 years, and you have to understand that the IDF has made offenses against Palestinians - against human rights - in the past, and those actions have consequences. Jordan is now 75% Palestinian because of all the refugees forced from there homes from the fighting in Israel/Palestine, this makes Jordan angry. If those people had a right to return Jordan would not be angry, and Jordan is not the only place Palestinians had to go when they were displaced, they went to Lebanon and Syria too, and there they were treated just as bad and with their mass immigration changed the society just as much. Now Syria, Lebanon and Jordan are mad, mad at Palestinians for comming and at Israel for not letting them return so that everyone can get back to normal living. Every action has repercussions, Israel is now facing the repercussions of their past actions. The solution is not to mow people down, because guess what, the actions of Israel have effected a lot of people in the region and they will keep comming, the solution is to look at the bigger picture. Violence breads violence, oppression breads oppression, and war breads war. Now Israel has to deal with the people it made angry over the last generations, the way to deal with that is to make sure that they do not keep angering those people or they will have to keep dealing with them. So if it really is regretable to you that people died, don't you think you should try to make sure it doesn't happen again in the future? Every next person you kill will anger more people the repercussions might not show themselves now, but god forbid it costs the lives of innocent people, be them Israeli or Palestinian, because that would be a crime against humanity.

    Sorry if what I say is unclear. I am very tired.

    Now to address the point about how Palestinians can not govern themselves if they can not control themselves one day a year: That year had big repercussions for them, and some of those people who were displaced were still alive. I know what it is to lose one's country and land, though I was very young when it happened to me I will never forget it. Neither will these people. In my country we have a battle commemorating the day we lost Kosovo. That was in 1389, but we still celebrate and mourn. There was a curse placed on everyone who did not fight at that battle that they may never reach happiness in their life. It is very hard to be happy if you have no homeland, and these people had that taken from them, not all those people who were kicked out took up arms against Israel, yet they were treated inhumanely and denied the right of return, which is provided by international law. It turned their lives upside down you can not expect them not to be angry. Like you say sometimes force is needed but regretable, that is the way they see it too, they lost their homeland they will do anything to get it back, if you were in their position you would do the same. There is nothing inherent about Palestinians or Muslims or anyone else that makes them more able or less able to govern themselves we are all people we all have the same flaws there are good and bad, responsible and irresponsible, smart and dumb people of every ethnicity, nationality, and religion. Do not be so ignorant to think otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Mohammad BF View Post
    What do you mean by (purchased)?

    Our grievances did posted from the first day when the first israeli put his foot in our country.
    Meaning Jews with money traded it to those who had deed for the land for said deed. Your grievances where they are legit stem from 1967 not before. its your peoples own damn fault for falling for King Hussein, King Faurouk and Grand Mufti Al- Husseini twisted visions or desire for power. The world gave you a country and you gave it away to despots and madmen.

    If you stick around here your going to learn a lot if your willing to learn. The pap both sides of the issue tell themselves is the truth doesn't fly here.

    Also I suggest you drop the racism, probably less than a third of the population of Palestinians can trace an ancestor to the area west of the Jordan and South of the Litani before the building of a railroad by the Ottomans and Ottoman invited investment and immigration of Zionists. The vast majority of Palestinians are recent arrivals who were there no longer than the majority of the Jews.

    Oh, and if you didn't know the land of Palestine/Israel has never been free of Jews since the emergence of that religion thousands of years ago. Jews as well as Arabs live there and the only solution is an equitable peace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohammad BF
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    No its not, the land prior to 1948 was purchased. During the war the land was seized from agressors- your forefathers. Your greivances are post 1967 only.
    What do you mean by (purchased)?

    Our grievances did posted from the first day when the first israeli put his foot in our country.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Mohammad BF View Post

    Two countrys? Really?
    it is our country, we have the right to to regain it.
    you Israelis stole it from us and we will never forget that.
    this is our country all palestine is our property!!
    No its not, the land prior to 1948 was purchased. During the war the land was seized from agressors- your forefathers. Your greivances are post 1967 only.

    Now go introduce yourself, read the rules and the wabbit survival guide.

    A word of warning- Palestinians are not terrorists but Hamas is. Supporting palestine is fine, supporting Hamas or other groups along the same lines is a bannable offense

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohammad BF
    replied
    Originally posted by bigross86
    First of all, the IDF needs to be commended for quick thinking on the local commander's part. He ordered his forces to act with much restraint, and when they finally needed to open fire, they shot in the air or at knee level to try and keep people from crossing the fence. The fact that people died is regrettable, but don't forget that these protestors crossed a live minefield and started tearing down the fence on an international border.
    They were weaponless, why using weapons against them.

    and by the way, you are lying about tearing the fence.

    Originally posted by bigross86
    So now, ask yourself the following question: Like Netanyahu said last night, if the Palestinian people can't control themselves one day a year, how do you expect them to govern an entire country on their own? The Palestinian leaders do not desire peace. They don't desire a two-state solution. They desire the complete and total destruction of Israel and yesterday they once again proclaimed their statements for the world to hear.
    well, we can control ourselves, But not while israelis forces killing us.

    Did you ever think that it would end like this.

    Two countrys? Really?
    it is our country, we have the right to to regain it.
    you Israelis stole it from us and we will never forget that.
    this is our country all palestine is our property!!

    Originally posted by bigross86
    Very well. The first thing you need to know is that an almost complete majority of the Palestinians were not deported out of Israel. They left voluntarily based on orders from the Arab High Command, saying it would make it easier to wipe out all the Jews.
    do they had any choice?
    do you think they were living a good life in there villages?
    do you know what was happening to them every day?

    well, the answer for all these question is,
    can anybody live in a place that gets Broken into and every day?

    thats what israelis forces was doing.

    ahh wait and what if the people in that house didn't looks good to them? simply they shot all the family and like nothing happened.

    Originally posted by USSWisconsin
    I am confused about calling a bunch of people who attack military units "civilians" - stupid, poorly armed partisans I could understand.
    They were weaponless, they didn't have any weapon!

    Originally posted by Dreadnought
    Get the Fire Hoses out, dont know many rock throwers that can stand up to 3000 psi of H20
    Very Funny.

    Originally posted by bigross86
    First of all, it's a given that when a guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force goes up against a well equipped and trained army, the army will win. Second of all, Israel has never really had good image and sympathy from the rest of the world, except for maybe in 1948. The problem is that A: Israel tries to be the decent player out of the two. Therefore, we're much easier to criticize. B: The Arabs have oil. Shit tons of oil. C: It's a lot easier to be the victim, and therefore the Palestinians have the advantage in the PR battle.
    about the (guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force) section,
    I dont know why you israeli keep calling us(the palestinians) terrorists, its not us who used a Weapons that is globally forbidden, the white Phosphorus for example.
    don't you know what is the (White Phosphorus) Effects see for yourself: White Phosphorus

    well, from what we seen in Gaza israeli is the one who should be called terrorists, want a prove? here is it: Israeli terrorists

    lets get to the (PR battle) section,
    well, if what you are saying are true, then why the U.S keep giving you support.

    if what you are saying are true, then why arabs army got the worst weapons that have made in history.

    if what you are saying are true, then why don't the U.S give us support why don't they help us against you why the keep support you israelis, to kill us?

    did you said that Israel tries to be the decent player?
    yes yes, decent.

    about the oil,
    as Doktor mentioned Palestine, syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt all of them don't have a one Drop of oil.

    well, you say that Palestinians have the PR advantage Right?
    ok, let me remeber you.
    Israeli is the one's Who Conquered us.

    Originally posted by Doktor
    Nobody likes pussies. Everyone goes with the victor. Back in the days I remember people seing IDF and Mossad like some ultra-capable organizations that can turn ME upside down in 5 minutes. Don't see that now. Why? Because both care more for the PR, rather then for the mission. When I see the news I have a feeling it will be the same if IDF killed 14k rather then 14 "civilians" It would've been the same news, everyone will forget two days later. Georgia comes to my mind as typical role model for my claims. Do you remember how many civilians died there? I don't. I remember only Russians rolling over Georgia.
    are you trying to tell him, Kill more of us?
    don't you think that the people who died already enough?

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    The thing is we are not living 2 millenniums ago, or 60 years ago, or 10 years ago. We live today and have an obligation for the future generations to provide them peace and prosperity. Well that's how I want to think.

    So, the situation at the moment is that state of Israel occupies that land and have active role there. Those who can make some peace there 1) don't care enough, b) don't have the means and c) nor the will to effectively help the Palestinians and the Jews to override the problem.

    To me a solution would be responsible people both from Israel and from Palestine to say, OK, that's it. Ones can't live with the soldiers posing curfew whenever they want, nor the others can live in constant fear what will blow next. I say let the Palestinians in the institutions and form some sort of confederation, and live the lives on. FGS they lived in some sort of peace when they were ruled by others why can't they live in peace and prosperity on their own?

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    From what I have read in the news that's a problem from 1948, when 780,000 Palestinians were (erm) deported out of Israel.

    Can you tell me why? What's happening now have roots in the history.

    I couldn't find unbiased, complete 1948 story with regular googling. Doubt you as unbiased source, but you seem reasonable and open minded, so I'll take your positions as a starting point.
    1948 is a case of 6 on one hand, half a dozen in the other. Yes the Arabs told locals to leave (until the fighting was over), but this was based on Israeli units also conducting a very organized (if officially unofficial) terror campaign to force them out. Call it the curse of the Irgun and the Stern Gang, British policy primed the fuse for the mass exodus Jews lit it and Arabs fanned the flamed when the whole thing blew up. Sometime postwar Israel offered to take ack in 1/5-1/6 of the refugees in trade for a real peace but this was rejected. The areas of Mandate Palestine not occupied by the Jews were seized by the local Arab states (illegally). In Particular Jordan was very agressive in seizing land.

    However, this seizure by Jordan was no more legal than Israel's 1967 seizure. However since the Palestinians were a recognized political unit in 1948 who took an active role in the figting, the land Israel gained in its war of independence was legal. This means legally there is no right of return.

    However 1967 is different, the Palestinians were already occupied and had no role in the war as a political unit. It does not matter how many times occupied lands trade hands they remain occupied and thus not subject to annexation.

    Leave a comment:


  • MIKEMUN
    replied
    BR, I thinkyou misunderstood me. I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending its borders. What I was trying topoint out was the irony of Syria calling the action of another state criminal while it is butchering its own people.
    And besides, all those "Palestinians" could have become citizens of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Those countries, for their own reasons, decided to make them perpetual refugees.. That and the free UN money...

    Leave a comment:


  • bigross86
    replied
    Doc, It's late and I'm about to head off to bed, but I'll give you some answers tomorrow. Might be kinda late, unless I happen to have a particularly boring lecture tomorrow

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    The declaration to split Israel into two states was voted in 29 November, 1947. Israel declared Independence May 14, 1948. Most of the Palestinians leaving came after the Declaration of Independence, after 5 armies invaded. Israel was a state. A struggling, fledgling state fighting for survival, but a state nonetheless.
    See, I told you I have no idea wtf. Thing is they "mourn" May 15th, or the day after your independence.


    The USA and UK have veto powers in the UNSC. I don't know what veto powers they have on UNRWA, which is the UN agency in charge of the Palestinians, and the Palestinian "refugee" problem
    And who and how votes the people in UNRWA. Don't get fooled any of the constant 5 in UNSC doesn't agree with the members there.

    First of all, it's a given that when a guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force goes up against a well equipped and trained army, the army will win.
    Are you sure? That can be true only if we talk about same or similar numbers of "troops". Being guerrilla/partisan formation gives you many advantages. Meaning with few fellow neighbors you can make big mess.

    Another thing is IDF can't focus on one threat at a time. Hitler didn't have problem conquering France, I think he wouldn't have problems with USSR if his troops were focused only there and he had peace on the east.

    Second of all, Israel has never really had good image and sympathy from the rest of the world, except for maybe in 1948.
    Weird observation, especially since Israel gets most of US aid abroad, IIRC 33%. I doubt any administration would do that without proper domestic approval.

    The problem is that A: Israel tries to be the decent player out of the two. Therefore, we're much easier to criticize.
    Nobody likes pussies. Everyone goes with the victor. Back in the days I remember people seing IDF and Mossad like some ultra-capable organizations that can turn ME upside down in 5 minutes. Don't see that now. Why? Because both care more for the PR, rather then for the mission. When I see the news I have a feeling it will be the same if IDF killed 14k rather then 14 "civilians" It would've been the same news, everyone will forget two days later. Georgia comes to my mind as typical role model for my claims. Do you remember how many civilians died there? I don't. I remember only Russians rolling over Georgia.

    B: The Arabs have oil. Shit tons of oil.
    Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians don't. Same Arabs had oil in 1978, too.

    C: It's a lot easier to be the victim, and therefore the Palestinians have the advantage in the PR battle.
    You are right here. Israel was the victim so far and was winning the PR battle. Small country, surrounded with enemies. People suffering the biggest recorded exodus in the history (more then once). Hardworking people who turned desert into oasis, exporting oranges and now the evil Arabs who outnumber them 20:1 want them out or dead.

    Which brings us to the final point, the PR battle. Yes, our PR machine sucks balls at the moment, which is why some of my friends and myself are in the planning stages of opening a website to fight the good fight, and why I hope to get into pro-Israel advocacy once I finish my degree
    Please do. I have a lot of friends who despised USA, visited this site, did some research and now you can't say anything against USA in front of them ;) Some of them are worse then US Ambassador here

    Leave a comment:


  • bigross86
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    Since Israel was not even a state at the time when those people left, your explanation makes sense. Anyway, for someone aside it is hard to believe ALL members of one ethnic group left voluntarily. The Ottomans here ruled for 5 centuries. When Ottoman empire collapsed, the Turks stayed even their army left and they were facing the anger of the liberators.
    The declaration to split Israel into two states was voted in 29 November, 1947. Israel declared Independence May 14, 1948. Most of the Palestinians leaving came after the Declaration of Independence, after 5 armies invaded. Israel was a state. A struggling, fledgling state fighting for survival, but a state nonetheless.


    Are we talking about the same UN that has USA and UK with power of veto? Who got mad at Israel state to allow UNSC to make this exception?
    The USA and UK have veto powers in the UNSC. I don't know what veto powers they have on UNRWA, which is the UN agency in charge of the Palestinians, and the Palestinian "refugee" problem

    Israel as a state took a lot of suspicious actions with more casualties on Palestinian side in the past and still managed to have good image and sympathies of the west world. There is something your guys in PR department of the Government are doing wrong at the moment.
    First of all, it's a given that when a guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force goes up against a well equipped and trained army, the army will win. Second of all, Israel has never really had good image and sympathy from the rest of the world, except for maybe in 1948. The problem is that A: Israel tries to be the decent player out of the two. Therefore, we're much easier to criticize. B: The Arabs have oil. Shit tons of oil. C: It's a lot easier to be the victim, and therefore the Palestinians have the advantage in the PR battle.

    Which brings us to the final point, the PR battle. Yes, our PR machine sucks balls at the moment, which is why some of my friends and myself are in the planning stages of opening a website to fight the good fight, and why I hope to get into pro-Israel advocacy once I finish my degree

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    Very well. The first thing you need to know is that an almost complete majority of the Palestinians were not deported out of Israel. They left voluntarily based on orders from the Arab High Command, saying it would make it easier to wipe out all the Jews.
    Since Israel was not even a state at the time when those people left, your explanation makes sense. Anyway, for someone aside it is hard to believe ALL members of one ethnic group left voluntarily. The Ottomans here ruled for 5 centuries. When Ottoman empire collapsed, the Turks stayed even their army left and they were facing the anger of the liberators.

    Second thing you need to know is that according to every single international treaty that exists, there is almost no such thing as a Palestinian refugee today. There are a select few still alive that were actually deported by the IDF or by the Israeli government, though that's about it. For some reason the UN has decided that ONLY in the case of the Palestinians the title of refugee will be passed down from generation to generation. Every other international convention doesn't even pass it down to the first generation.
    Are we talking about the same UN that has USA and UK with power of veto? Who got mad at Israel state to allow UNSC to make this exception?

    Israel as a state took a lot of suspicious actions with more casualties on Palestinian side in the past and still managed to have good image and sympathies of the west world. There is something your guys in PR department of the Government are doing wrong at the moment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dreadnought
    replied
    Get the Fire Hoses out, dont know many rock throwers that can stand up to 3000 psi of H20.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigross86
    replied
    Welcome to the Middle East...

    Leave a comment:


  • USSWisconsin
    replied
    I am confused about calling a bunch of people who attack military units "civilians" - stupid, poorly armed partisans I could understand.

    Leave a comment:

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