Israeli forces open fire at Palestinian protesters

[MIKEMUN]

Israeli forces open fire at Palestinian protesters

Israeli forces have fired on groups of protesters at borders with the Palestinian territories, Syria and Lebanon.

Reports say that at least 12 people have died and dozens more have been injured.

In one incident, thousands of Palestinian supporters from Syria entered the Golan Heights, Israel says.

Palestinians are marking the Nakba or Catastrophe, their term for the founding of the Israeli state in 1948.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were forced out of their homes in fighting after its creation.

Responding in a televised address to Sunday's violence, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he hoped "calm and quiet will quickly return, but let nobody be mistaken, we are determined to defend our borders and sovereignty".

Later on Sunday, security forces in the Egyptian capital Cairo fired warning shots and tear gas to break up protests outside the Israeli embassy.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has called for calm and urged all sides to show "utmost responsibility".

In a statement, he said there was an "unsustainable status quo in the Arab-Israeli conflict, which is only thrown into sharper relief by the profound political changes now under way in the region" and called for a renewed effort to reach comprehensive peace in the region.

Impetus

Clashes have been taking place at four separate borders or crossing points - at Erez in Gaza, near Ramallah in the West Bank, on the Golan Heights and at the border with Lebanon.



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The unusual flare-ups on the Golan and on the Lebanese border came as Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's regime moved into its third month of confronting its biggest internal challenge in more than 40 years of rule by his family and the Baath Party.

It would be hard not to see a link between the two developments.

To allow a controlled burst of tension on the borders with Israel might have been seen by the Syrian regime as serving several useful purposes: to divert attention from its internal troubles and to burnish its nationalist credentials of steadfast resistance to Israel.

It may also have been aimed at conveying to Israel and the Americans the message that if Mr Assad's grip on power should slip, Israel might face a much more militant Syria.

Arab spring or foreign manipulation?

The BBC's Jon Donnison, in the West Bank town of Ramallah, said this year's Nakba protests have been given impetus by the uprisings in countries across the Middle East and North Africa.

Clashes at the Qalandiya checkpoint in Ramallah continued for hours, with dozens of Palestinians injured.

Palestinian protesters threw stones at Israeli security forces, who fired tear gas and rubber bullets.

On the occupied Golan Heights, the Israeli military said it had only fired warning shots as a large number of protesters tried to breach a border fence near the village of Majdal Shams.

But reports said at least two people had been killed and dozens injured.

Israel's army says this is a "serious" incursion. Brig Gen Yoav Mordechai said soldiers were still trying to control the crowds and that dozens of protesters had crossed.

The army has reportedly sealed off Majdal Shams and is carrying out house-to-house searches for "infiltrators".

Israel seized the strategic territory from Syria in the closing stages of the 1967 Six-Day War.

On the Lebanon-Israel border, a large number of protesters also approached the crossing with Israel.

Dozens of buses had brought protesters to the area under the rally slogan of "March for the return to Palestine".


Lebanese soldiers had fired in the air to try to disperse the protesters, who were chanting: "By our soul, our blood, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Palestine."

Gen Mordechai says Israeli troops fired as demonstrators began vandalising the fence.

Lebanese military officials say 10 people have been killed and scores wounded.

"We are seeing here an Iranian provocation, on both the Syrian and the Lebanese frontiers, to try to exploit the Nakba day commemorations," Gen Mordechai said.

A spokesman for the UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon called on both sides there to show restraint.

Syria denounced Israeli actions in the Golan Heights and Lebanon as "criminal", Agence France-Presse news agency reported.

"Israel will have to bear full responsibility for its actions," the foreign ministry said.

However, one Israeli official told AFP: "Syria is a police state. Demonstrators do not randomly approach the border without the prior approval of the central government."

On the Israel-Gaza frontier, at the Erez border crossing, Israeli troops opened fire with tanks and machine guns, injuring dozens, Palestinian medical officials said.

Police in Jordan fired tear gas to break up protesters gathering at a village near the Israeli border.

In Cairo, police used tear gas and warning shots to drive back a crowd of several hundred people who were attempting to reach the Israeli embassy in protest.

The Mena state news agency said at least 24 people were injured in the clashes.

Meanwhile in Tel Aviv, Israeli police are investigating whether an Arab-Israeli lorry driver deliberately ploughed into pedestrians, killing one Israeli man.


BBC News - Israeli forces open fire at Palestinian protesters

[MIKEMUN]

Syria talking about criminal actions???

[bigross86]

So let me ask you a question: Are you willing to listen to facts and the truth, or take what you read in an article that's highly slanted against Israel for granted?

So, let's begin: Yes, the IDF shot some protestors yesterday. Last I've read is that 3 people died. Yes, the IDF did drop the ball yesterday and not have enough forces available at first to deal with the problem.

However:

First of all, the IDF needs to be commended for quick thinking on the local commander's part. He ordered his forces to act with much restraint, and when they finally needed to open fire, they shot in the air or at knee level to try and keep people from crossing the fence. The fact that people died is regrettable, but don't forget that these protestors crossed a live minefield and started tearing down the fence on an international border.

By all rights, the IDF could have done the same thing the Lebanese army did and shoot to kill. These people were trying to illegally cross an international border of a country that is extremely hostile to us, if not at war with us, still. The IDF could have employed marksmen and taken shot after shot towards center mass. After the first couple dozen died, the rest might have gotten the message. However, the IDF instead decided to go against it's better judgment, do everything possible to avoid casualties and is still lambasted in the world press.

So now, ask yourself the following question: Like Netanyahu said last night, if the Palestinian people can't control themselves one day a year, how do you expect them to govern an entire country on their own? The Palestinian leaders do not desire peace. They don't desire a two-state solution. They desire the complete and total destruction of Israel and yesterday they once again proclaimed their statements for the world to hear.

[Doktor]

From what I have read in the news that's a problem from 1948, when 780,000 Palestinians were (erm) deported out of Israel.

Can you tell me why? What's happening now have roots in the history.

I couldn't find unbiased, complete 1948 story with regular googling. Doubt you as unbiased source, but you seem reasonable and open minded, so I'll take your positions as a starting point.

[bigross86]

Very well. The first thing you need to know is that an almost complete majority of the Palestinians were not deported out of Israel. They left voluntarily based on orders from the Arab High Command, saying it would make it easier to wipe out all the Jews.

Second thing you need to know is that according to every single international treaty that exists, there is almost no such thing as a Palestinian refugee today. There are a select few still alive that were actually deported by the IDF or by the Israeli government, though that's about it. For some reason the UN has decided that ONLY in the case of the Palestinians the title of refugee will be passed down from generation to generation. Every other international convention doesn't even pass it down to the first generation.

[USSWisconsin]

I am confused about calling a bunch of people who attack military units "civilians" - stupid, poorly armed partisans I could understand.

[bigross86]

Welcome to the Middle East...

[Dreadnought]

Get the Fire Hoses out, dont know many rock throwers that can stand up to 3000 psi of H20.

[Doktor]

Very well. The first thing you need to know is that an almost complete majority of the Palestinians were not deported out of Israel. They left voluntarily based on orders from the Arab High Command, saying it would make it easier to wipe out all the Jews.

Since Israel was not even a state at the time when those people left, your explanation makes sense. Anyway, for someone aside it is hard to believe ALL members of one ethnic group left voluntarily. The Ottomans here ruled for 5 centuries. When Ottoman empire collapsed, the Turks stayed even their army left and they were facing the anger of the liberators.

Second thing you need to know is that according to every single international treaty that exists, there is almost no such thing as a Palestinian refugee today. There are a select few still alive that were actually deported by the IDF or by the Israeli government, though that's about it. For some reason the UN has decided that ONLY in the case of the Palestinians the title of refugee will be passed down from generation to generation. Every other international convention doesn't even pass it down to the first generation.

Are we talking about the same UN that has USA and UK with power of veto? Who got mad at Israel state to allow UNSC to make this exception?

Israel as a state took a lot of suspicious actions with more casualties on Palestinian side in the past and still managed to have good image and sympathies of the west world. There is something your guys in PR department of the Government are doing wrong at the moment.

[bigross86]

Since Israel was not even a state at the time when those people left, your explanation makes sense. Anyway, for someone aside it is hard to believe ALL members of one ethnic group left voluntarily. The Ottomans here ruled for 5 centuries. When Ottoman empire collapsed, the Turks stayed even their army left and they were facing the anger of the liberators.

The declaration to split Israel into two states was voted in 29 November, 1947. Israel declared Independence May 14, 1948. Most of the Palestinians leaving came after the Declaration of Independence, after 5 armies invaded. Israel was a state. A struggling, fledgling state fighting for survival, but a state nonetheless.

Are we talking about the same UN that has USA and UK with power of veto? Who got mad at Israel state to allow UNSC to make this exception?

The USA and UK have veto powers in the UNSC. I don't know what veto powers they have on UNRWA, which is the UN agency in charge of the Palestinians, and the Palestinian "refugee" problem

Israel as a state took a lot of suspicious actions with more casualties on Palestinian side in the past and still managed to have good image and sympathies of the west world. There is something your guys in PR department of the Government are doing wrong at the moment.

First of all, it's a given that when a guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force goes up against a well equipped and trained army, the army will win. Second of all, Israel has never really had good image and sympathy from the rest of the world, except for maybe in 1948. The problem is that A: Israel tries to be the decent player out of the two. Therefore, we're much easier to criticize. B: The Arabs have oil. Shit tons of oil. C: It's a lot easier to be the victim, and therefore the Palestinians have the advantage in the PR battle.

Which brings us to the final point, the PR battle. Yes, our PR machine sucks balls at the moment, which is why some of my friends and myself are in the planning stages of opening a website to fight the good fight, and why I hope to get into pro-Israel advocacy once I finish my degree

[Doktor]

The declaration to split Israel into two states was voted in 29 November, 1947. Israel declared Independence May 14, 1948. Most of the Palestinians leaving came after the Declaration of Independence, after 5 armies invaded. Israel was a state. A struggling, fledgling state fighting for survival, but a state nonetheless.

See, I told you I have no idea wtf. Thing is they "mourn" May 15th, or the day after your independence.

The USA and UK have veto powers in the UNSC. I don't know what veto powers they have on UNRWA, which is the UN agency in charge of the Palestinians, and the Palestinian "refugee" problem

And who and how votes the people in UNRWA. Don't get fooled any of the constant 5 in UNSC doesn't agree with the members there.

First of all, it's a given that when a guerrilla/insurgent/terrorist force goes up against a well equipped and trained army, the army will win.

Are you sure? That can be true only if we talk about same or similar numbers of "troops". Being guerrilla/partisan formation gives you many advantages. Meaning with few fellow neighbors you can make big mess.

Another thing is IDF can't focus on one threat at a time. Hitler didn't have problem conquering France, I think he wouldn't have problems with USSR if his troops were focused only there and he had peace on the east.

Second of all, Israel has never really had good image and sympathy from the rest of the world, except for maybe in 1948.

Weird observation, especially since Israel gets most of US aid abroad, IIRC 33%. I doubt any administration would do that without proper domestic approval.

The problem is that A: Israel tries to be the decent player out of the two. Therefore, we're much easier to criticize.

Nobody likes pussies. Everyone goes with the victor. Back in the days I remember people seing IDF and Mossad like some ultra-capable organizations that can turn ME upside down in 5 minutes. Don't see that now. Why? Because both care more for the PR, rather then for the mission. When I see the news I have a feeling it will be the same if IDF killed 14k rather then 14 "civilians" It would've been the same news, everyone will forget two days later. Georgia comes to my mind as typical role model for my claims. Do you remember how many civilians died there? I don't. I remember only Russians rolling over Georgia.

B: The Arabs have oil. Shit tons of oil.

Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians don't. Same Arabs had oil in 1978, too.

C: It's a lot easier to be the victim, and therefore the Palestinians have the advantage in the PR battle.

You are right here. Israel was the victim so far and was winning the PR battle. Small country, surrounded with enemies. People suffering the biggest recorded exodus in the history (more then once). Hardworking people who turned desert into oasis, exporting oranges and now the evil Arabs who outnumber them 20:1 want them out or dead.

Which brings us to the final point, the PR battle. Yes, our PR machine sucks balls at the moment, which is why some of my friends and myself are in the planning stages of opening a website to fight the good fight, and why I hope to get into pro-Israel advocacy once I finish my degree

Please do. I have a lot of friends who despised USA, visited this site, did some research and now you can't say anything against USA in front of them ;) Some of them are worse then US Ambassador here

[bigross86]

Doc, It's late and I'm about to head off to bed, but I'll give you some answers tomorrow. Might be kinda late, unless I happen to have a particularly boring lecture tomorrow

[MIKEMUN]

BR, I thinkyou misunderstood me. I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending its borders. What I was trying topoint out was the irony of Syria calling the action of another state criminal while it is butchering its own people.
And besides, all those "Palestinians" could have become citizens of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Those countries, for their own reasons, decided to make them perpetual refugees.. That and the free UN money...

[zraver]

From what I have read in the news that's a problem from 1948, when 780,000 Palestinians were (erm) deported out of Israel.

Can you tell me why? What's happening now have roots in the history.

I couldn't find unbiased, complete 1948 story with regular googling. Doubt you as unbiased source, but you seem reasonable and open minded, so I'll take your positions as a starting point.

1948 is a case of 6 on one hand, half a dozen in the other. Yes the Arabs told locals to leave (until the fighting was over), but this was based on Israeli units also conducting a very organized (if officially unofficial) terror campaign to force them out. Call it the curse of the Irgun and the Stern Gang, British policy primed the fuse for the mass exodus Jews lit it and Arabs fanned the flamed when the whole thing blew up. Sometime postwar Israel offered to take ack in 1/5-1/6 of the refugees in trade for a real peace but this was rejected. The areas of Mandate Palestine not occupied by the Jews were seized by the local Arab states (illegally). In Particular Jordan was very agressive in seizing land.

However, this seizure by Jordan was no more legal than Israel's 1967 seizure. However since the Palestinians were a recognized political unit in 1948 who took an active role in the figting, the land Israel gained in its war of independence was legal. This means legally there is no right of return.

However 1967 is different, the Palestinians were already occupied and had no role in the war as a political unit. It does not matter how many times occupied lands trade hands they remain occupied and thus not subject to annexation.

[Doktor]

The thing is we are not living 2 millenniums ago, or 60 years ago, or 10 years ago. We live today and have an obligation for the future generations to provide them peace and prosperity. Well that's how I want to think.

So, the situation at the moment is that state of Israel occupies that land and have active role there. Those who can make some peace there 1) don't care enough, b) don't have the means and c) nor the will to effectively help the Palestinians and the Jews to override the problem.

To me a solution would be responsible people both from Israel and from Palestine to say, OK, that's it. Ones can't live with the soldiers posing curfew whenever they want, nor the others can live in constant fear what will blow next. I say let the Palestinians in the institutions and form some sort of confederation, and live the lives on. FGS they lived in some sort of peace when they were ruled by others why can't they live in peace and prosperity on their own?