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Mossad Australian Passport Scam - How not to win friends and influence countries

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  • #16
    Its the business of clandestine services to use every trick in your bag to accomplish the mission and that includes stuff like forging documents and passports. Do you all seriously expect the Mossad agents to use their Israeli passports to visit UAE to do this hit. And WTF was this Hamas scum doing in UAE and if UAE claims ignorance of this pig's presence in their country, its BS.....

    Canada and Oz did the right thing in condemning Israel diplomatically. I can even accept the uninformed citizen protesting but I am totally stumped that even veterans are condemning Israel.....

    The only thing that I would find fault with Israel is that they got caught in the act.....period...
    Seek Save Serve Medic

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 667medic View Post
      Its the business of clandestine services to use every trick in your bag to accomplish the mission and that includes stuff like forging documents and passports. Do you all seriously expect the Mossad agents to use their Israeli passports to visit UAE to do this hit. And WTF was this Hamas scum doing in UAE and if UAE claims ignorance of this pig's presence in their country, its BS.....

      Canada and Oz did the right thing in condemning Israel diplomatically. I can even accept the uninformed citizen protesting but I am totally stumped that even veterans are condemning Israel.....

      The only thing that I would find fault with Israel is that they got caught in the act.....period...
      Burning a country that has been a strong & at times important supporter of Israel since its creation (google H.V.Evatt) is taking a dangerously narrow view of the world. Simply trotting out 'national security' every time you do something dumb won't wash. I'm sure that Israel could have killed our terrorist here without p1ssing off nations that probably do more harm than good to their own narrow interests when they support Israel.

      I wouldn't have thought Israel was so flush with solid freinds that it could afford to slap any in the face, though give the way America gets treated I should probably be less surprised. Stupid & unecessary.
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      • #18
        First of all, like someone said before, no one has confirmed that it was actually Israel or the Mossad doing the killing. As long as we're dealing with professionals, could it be that someone else did it and wants to put the blame on the Mossad? Or alternately, if you really want to get confused, the Mossad did do it, and did it so obviously that you'd think "Hey, the Mossad are better than this, maybe someone is trying to frame them?"

        Second of all, according to the Mossad operation style of Katsa/Sayanim, there is no reason at all for there to have been 26 people involved in his death, especially not for all of them to have come in from overseas. The Mossad system (from what little has been revealed) works mainly with people who already live in the operation area, cutting down on Mossad staff, and adding flexibility. Given that it was in Dubai and there probably aren't that many Jews there I can accept that they would need to bring in some support, but again, I don't think you need 26 people for this kind of operation.

        Consider that a police standard stakeout will use just 2 or 3 teams of 2/3 people each. Did the Mossad (who are arguably better trained in this than the police) really need 3 to 4 times that amount of people?

        In the Wrath of God assassinations of the Munich massacre members, a typical hit squad was 15 people, broken down into 5 separate groups: 2 Killers, 2 people who would shadow the killers, 2 agents would establish a cover (hotel rooms, cars), 6-8 agents compromised the backbone (shadowing the targets, establishing escape routes, safe houses, etc...) and 2 for communications. A Time article after the Lillehammer Affair also put the number of operatives at around 15.

        According to Aaron J. Klein, a typical Caesarea assassination team was 12 people, split into logistics, surveillance and assassinations. According to Yuval Aviv, he led a 5 man team in Europe. In any case, the Dubai hit had anywhere from almost double to five times the amount of people the Mossad has been known to use.

        Moreover, usually if you're going to plan a hit, you do it in more than one day and stream the people in and out gradually, not all there one day and gone the next, especially considering it took the Dubai police nearly a whole month to publish their preliminary conclusions.
        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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        • #19
          Well, moving forward, assuming it was Israel...

          Nobody is saying that forging documents doesn't happen or even that it shouldn't happen.

          What they ARE saying is that the choice of which documents to forge could have been somewhat better.

          Do you honestly think that it is better to go in on the false passport of two of the few countries that have been staunch supporters of Israel for the last 50 years? Or perhaps one of the other 130 odd choices of those countries that haven't been so friendly?

          Cos you are right. The average Aussie or Canadian isn't really up on world affairs. But what they see from a sensationalist media is that some Israelis used their passport under false pretences to do their own dirty work. Then the PM says "hey, let's abstain in the next vote against Israel in the UN in protest". The average Aussie or Canadian (not knowing much about world politics) thinks, hell yeah - we'll show them not to use our passports!!! And then the PM notices a slight bump in his popularity for sticking it to the Izzies.

          Are you really sure Israel should be politicising the game of supporting Israel in two of the few countries where support has been practically guaranteed for 50 years?

          Because that has basically been the outcome. It ain't too bad yet, but making a habit of it would see it go down this path solidly.

          The Israelis have isolated friends when they could have simply irritated existing enemies by choosing different passports.

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          • #20
            Whats Good for the Goose......

            Coup De Grace,
            Iím not sure you would be saying this if the shoe was on the other foot. Letís assume for arguments sake that a Moslem nation (not the usual suspects e.g. Syria, Iran) but one well respected and connected in the international community decided that the best way to move the peace process forward was to weaken what they saw as pro-Israeli elements in the west.

            To this end they decide to launch a series of covert assassinations against the leaders of various pro-Israeli lobby groups, political associations and PR groups. No indiscriminate killings, no public violence just nice "neat" private executions of influential persons who happen to be pro-Israel. Would that be OK ?? Should the Western nations in whose jurisdictions the offences occurred not initiate criminal investigations and seek all legal means to find those responsible?
            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Monash View Post
              Coup De Grace,
              Iím not sure you would be saying this if the shoe was on the other foot. Letís assume for arguments sake that a Moslem nation (not the usual suspects e.g. Syria, Iran) but one well respected and connected in the international community decided that the best way to move the peace process forward was to weaken what they saw as pro-Israeli elements in the west.

              To this end they decide to launch a series of covert assassinations against the leaders of various pro-Israeli lobby groups, political associations and PR groups. No indiscriminate killings, no public violence just nice "neat" private executions of influential persons who happen to be pro-Israel. Would that be OK ?? Should the Western nations in whose jurisdictions the offences occurred not initiate criminal investigations and seek all legal means to find those responsible?
              When you were a kid, did you ever kick a hornet's nest? No, because you know better. If this so called "well respected and connected" nation decided to start taking out pro-Israel elements, then first of all, I fully expect the country it happened it to initiate criminal investigations. However, I also know that at the same time, the Israeli response probably will not be too far behind. I have nothing against Dubai investigating, but as they say in Texas, "He needed killin'."

              Especially when it comes to Covert Ops, Israel is the Big Dawg in the Middle East. Don't believe me? Ask any of the folks on This list
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                I have nothing against Dubai investigating, but as they say in Texas, "He needed killin'."
                So you don't mind if they investigate... just so long as they don't catch anyone.
                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                • #23
                  I never said that either. What I said is that no one has proved yet that it was actually Mossad's doing, and I supported that by saying that the Dubai team had many more people than Mossad has been known to use in execution teams.

                  By all means, in any murder case, the country it happened in should investigate, and even try and find who the murderer is/are, and if they have an extradition treaty, than the offenders should stand trial forthwith. But if the country in question (Dubai) refuses to even recognize the existence of their main suspect's country (Israel), I don't quite see an extradition treaty anywhere.

                  Extradition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  The consensus in international law is that a state does not have any obligation to surrender an alleged criminal to a foreign state as one principle of sovereignty is that every state has legal authority over the people within its borders
                  Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                  Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Monash View Post
                    Coup De Grace,
                    Iím not sure you would be saying this if the shoe was on the other foot. Letís assume for arguments sake that a Moslem nation (not the usual suspects e.g. Syria, Iran) but one well respected and connected in the international community decided that the best way to move the peace process forward was to weaken what they saw as pro-Israeli elements in the west.

                    To this end they decide to launch a series of covert assassinations against the leaders of various pro-Israeli lobby groups, political associations and PR groups. No indiscriminate killings, no public violence just nice "neat" private executions of influential persons who happen to be pro-Israel. Would that be OK ?? Should the Western nations in whose jurisdictions the offences occurred not initiate criminal investigations and seek all legal means to find those responsible?
                    The "shoe on the other foot" in this case would mean any other country using Israeli passports to assassinate a target in another country (which is probably not very likely to happen), but still, I don't think it will cause any ruckus, or at least one as ridiculous as this one.

                    And even in the case which you described there is one major difference; Israel is sovereign country, not an improvised terror organization. any attempt by another sovereign country to assassinate men that work on our behalf is a clear declaration of war. Also, these leaders of pro Israeli lobbies are not responsible for dozens of assaults against civilian targets, which would make their deaths unjust, and if any IDF background is a good enough reason to assassinate a target then they might as well kill almost every man in Israel, not just the ones in the pro Israeli lobbies.

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                    • #25
                      Whats confusing, is they say they altered the photographs so as not too recognize the agent identity, isn't that important, so the picture looks like them to pass through any inspection? I mean, the card your holding has to match the guy that gave it too you?
                      sigpic

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dago View Post
                        Whats confusing, is they say they altered the photographs so as not too recognize the agent identity, isn't that important, so the picture looks like them to pass through any inspection? I mean, the card your holding has to match the guy that gave it too you?
                        You're contradicting yourself here, or I'm just really confused by your statement.

                        A:Whats confusing, is they say they altered the photographs so as not too recognize the agent identity


                        Which is standard procedure any time you want to use a fake ID. You don't want to be recognized afterward. You fudge some of the details. Add hair where there once wasn't, remove hair where there once was. Add a beard to the picture, change the shape of the eyebrows. Computers can do these things nowadays

                        B:isn't that important, so the picture looks like them to pass through any inspection


                        Not really. I got both my passport pictures taken when I was in the army. Buzz cut, no beard. Now I've got long hair and a goatee. I've been through about 15 different airports in the past 2 years, and every single time the person checking my passport does a double take and then takes a closer look. You can't expect everyone to look exactly the same way they do on their passport, can you? Passports are usually updated once every 10 years, 5 if it's a minor's passport.

                        C:I mean, the card your holding has to match the guy that gave it too you?

                        Again, if the passports were forged, they need to match the current holder of the passport, not the previous owner or the person whose details they borrowed. Writing a new name or putting in a new picture is infinitely easier than finding a passport you can use and then finding someone who looks like the picture in the passport, wouldn't you say?
                        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                        • #27
                          I understand, they altered minor appearances of a new photograph and not one of the original passport holders. For some reason I was thinking they actually physically stole the passports, IE. The person looks completely different then the assumed agent.

                          What I now understand is, that they stole the identity and they forged the passport to make it look like an authentic passport. And, the picture is of the agent, but minor things have been altered so it wouldn't be the true picture of the agent, IE like hair, lips, eyebrows.

                          Is this correct?

                          But why the need too steal passport identity's if that were the case? If they were going to e forged. Why not just create a new name, and create a passport, it's not like customs at UAE and cross reference them at the airport? And if they happen to get caught, eventually the true identity of the person in contact will be different then the person that is in custody when investigating.

                          Another note, why forge. Just utilize sleeper agents which have dual passports. Going under different names.

                          Also, another question, the passports in questions, were they all Israeli citizens or dual passports? Yet, the government is denying it, and the only time in history where 13 passports would be stolen and the target would be hamas and they were of Israelis.

                          Why not make it look like Syria/Saudi Arabia or even American. No Israeli ties. Just need to be informed of American, or Syrian passport holders. Israel could do the rest. Might take a lil work, like stalking individuals to find out aout there identity. But possible.
                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Coup De Grace View Post
                            The "shoe on the other foot" in this case would mean any other country using Israeli passports to assassinate a target in another country (which is probably not very likely to happen), but still, I don't think it will cause any ruckus, or at least one as ridiculous as this one.
                            Then you'd be wrong.

                            If Canadian, Australian and UK diplomats didn't try to milk every concession they could out of Israel for this, they wouldn't be very good diplomats and they wouldn't be doing their job properly.

                            That's just part of the game.

                            And it's exactly how your diplomats would play it too.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dago View Post
                              I understand, they altered minor appearances of a new photograph and not one of the original passport holders. For some reason I was thinking they actually physically stole the passports, IE. The person looks completely different then the assumed agent.

                              What I now understand is, that they stole the identity and they forged the passport to make it look like an authentic passport. And, the picture is of the agent, but minor things have been altered so it wouldn't be the true picture of the agent, IE like hair, lips, eyebrows.

                              Is this correct?
                              Yes

                              But why the need too steal passport identity's if that were the case? If they were going to e forged. Why not just create a new name, and create a passport, it's not like customs at UAE and cross reference them at the airport? And if they happen to get caught, eventually the true identity of the person in contact will be different then the person that is in custody when investigating.
                              Because in many countries, that's exactly what they do at passport control: They cross check your name with any and all international databases, and to create a passport out of thin air is more dangerous than using a false identity. Using a false identity, at least you know it will work. Using a false German passport, there's no way to be certain you'll get through without hacking the German computers and their system

                              Another note, why forge. Just utilize sleeper agents which have dual passports. Going under different names.
                              How many sleeper agents would you guess there are in Dubai that are there do wet work? Dubai is not that high a priority on many countries' lists that they would expend the time and money to plant a few sleeper agents there. Mossad especially, which is a lot smaller than the other agencies won't keep a sleeper in Dubai. Plus, the disadvantages to a using a sleeper is that once you activate him, he's burned. You have to get him out of the country and can't use him ever again in that country. If a hit goes off properly, no one should be able to identify the killers and they should be free to operate again.

                              Also, another question, the passports in questions, were they all Israeli citizens or dual passports? Yet, the government is denying it, and the only time in history where 13 passports would be stolen and the target would be hamas and they were of Israelis.
                              They are not all dual citizens, some of them don't even exist. The Irish claim that the numbers on their passports were valid, but the names were fraudulent; and also that every single person whose passport was used that they contacted has never been to the Middle East


                              Why not make it look like Syria/Saudi Arabia or even American. No Israeli ties. Just need to be informed of American, or Syrian passport holders. Israel could do the rest. Might take a lil work, like stalking individuals to find out aout there identity. But possible.

                              I can't really tell you why it was done like this, but remember, it hasn't been concluded yet that this was actually done by the Mossad. In the world of Covert Operations, if everything points so nice and neatly towards the Israelis, then one of two things: It was either the Israelis, and they were too stupid to cover their trail properly, or it wasn't the Israelis but someone wants you to think it was them. Confused yet?
                              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                              • #30
                                Yeah, it could have been a PA black op, in which case it was not badly done.

                                So everybody on WAB should now be out there giving Abu Mazen and Dahlan their props!

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