2023 Israeli-Gazan War

[S2]

Call me when they set up gas chambers. Optics are never the story and this isn't a movie for our entertainment. The Palestinian people are welcome to save everybody the trouble and just drag Hamas out of their rat holes. It's been their choice since 2007 and they've chosen to abide Hamas. With the latest, the butcher's bill has now come due.

[Dazed]

How do you move 1 million plus Palestinians? Use Gaza's airports, vast road and rail network? Doesn't exist.

Gaza is full of dense multi story buildings with hundreds of thousand firing points and an equal number of egress points, I'm not a war fighter, but I imagine encirclement with starve them out. Which I assume the Israeli's will do.

If you talk to a Palestinian from Jordan, Lebanon, etc. You will hear how the name on your job application will prevent any job interview. You will be encouraged to stay in designated areas, which is a nice way to say camp.

To say the problems of the middle east is caused by borders drawn by Europeans is BS. It's ok to limit rights and opportunities to select members of your country well because of borders that don't just reflect your tribe. The countries of the middle east don't want Palestinians on their soil. It's not because of Black September in Jordan, homeless stateless Palestinians aren't their problem.

It's the people and the leaders of the country that make a country. That is why the middle east is the middle east. Maybe if you could have a liquor store and bbq pork in every small town and city, it might be a mellower place.

[Albany Rifles]

The divisions were there long before the Brits came to the scene. It took an Ottoman Army committing genocide to keep the tribes at peace.

Totally agree Colonel. But what caused issues was not drawing by tribal boundaries but the British & French arbitrarily drew lines on maps that didn't take tribal boundaries into account.

[Albany Rifles]

Totally agree Colonel. But what caused issues was not drawing by tribal boundaries but the British & French arbitrarily drew lines on maps that didn't take tribal boundaries into account.

My comment was about the making of nation states in the 20th Century after the collapse and defeat of the Ottoman Empire and how the British & French didn't take tribal boundaries into account...mch as they did in Africa.

It may have been 45 years ago but I remember this always from my Middle Eastern History & Politics classes. It was also a general sentiment with every Israeli & Turkish officer I met in Army schools.

[Dazed]

My comment was about the making of nation states in the 20th Century after the collapse and defeat of the Ottoman Empire and how the British & French didn't take tribal boundaries into account...mch as they did in Africa.

It may have been 45 years ago but I remember this always from my Middle Eastern History & Politics classes. It was also a general sentiment with every Israeli & Turkish officer I met in Army schools.

So only North America. Europe, NZ and Australia have to find a way to make people of completely different cultures/refugees safe and productive members of their societies? If an European Treaty drew your boundries it's ok to put up one sign for allowing members of one group and another sign for non members of that group.

Putin using the same reasoning on Ukraine.

[Goatboy]

Says what authoratative source, exactly?

The United Nations' (Office On Genocide Prevention And The Responsibility To Protect) seem to say otherwise. Rather it seems that it is in the actions taken in the removal, and/or in the actions taken in coercing same, which may transgress the law, rather than the removal itself.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml
(excerpted to the quoted section below)

What authoritative source? Yours I'd imagine. See the bottom of the page from your link "The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”. "Ethnic cleansing" wasn't part of the UN 1948 list of crimes you're right, frankly because the allies would be guilty and they knew it. Ethnic cleansing of Germans, Ukrainians in the Holodomor, Japanese-American internment camps, Japanese on South Sakhalin etc. etc.

But taking a look at "Crimes against Humanity" section, not the "Ethnic Cleansing" section in your official UN link we see that Israel could very well be convicted.

The Rome statute of the International Criminal Court under article 7 -- crimes against humanity. Notice #4. Kicking out all Gazans from Gaza is most certainly forced deportation. Frankly, #10 could be considered an ongoing Crime against Humanity by Israel as well, at least with the Palestinians in the West Bank that is. They'd have a decent case that they live in an apartheid state, but that's outside the scope of my response for the moment.

1. Murder;
2. Extermination;
3. Enslavement;
4. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
5. Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
6. Torture;
7. Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
8. Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
9. Enforced disappearance of persons;
10. The crime of apartheid;
11. Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

[Officer of Engineers]

Call me when they set up gas chambers. Optics are never the story and this isn't a movie for our entertainment. The Palestinian people are welcome to save everybody the trouble and just drag Hamas out of their rat holes. It's been their choice since 2007 and they've chosen to abide Hamas. With the latest, the butcher's bill has now come due.

They don't need gas chambers. Cholera and exposure would do very nicely thank you very much. The Israelis made a choice. Their babies over Palestinian babies. I can understand that but make no mistake, the Israelis are burning babies. It's not soldiers' work. But as soldiers, DO NOT DENY IT!

[statquo]

US sends second aircraft carrier to region - Pentagon

The US has announced it is sending a second aircraft carrier to the region in order "to deter hostile actions against Israel", according to a statement from the Pentagon.

The USS Eisenhower aircraft carrier is being despatched to the eastern Mediterranean to support the USS Gerald R Ford and its accompanying warships, which are already in the region, it says.

~BBC

-..

[Officer of Engineers]

What authoritative source?]

Israel is not an ICC signatory. Neither is the US nor Russia.

[Bigfella]

Wow, that’s an insightful post man. Just curious, were you referring to South Sudan?

Thanks.

And no, its not Sth Sudan. I am VERY white, as anyone who has met me can attest. I was referring to Ireland (though in earlier posts I have referenced the Tigrayan War in Ethiopia - I have close connections to that nation). Its been a LONG while since any of my family came from Ireland, but I have about the most irish surname a bloke can have and I know a fair bit about the guy who brought that name to Australia, so I claim the heritage.

The dead guy in question was Michael Collins, who fought the British to a standstill & then led the delegation to set the terms for independence. He knew it was a shit sandwich, but he also knew the British military was poised to flatten Ireland and kill a bunch of people if he said no. Neither side was happy about the terms, and once it was signed Winston Churchill, a member of the British delegation, famously remarked "I may have signed my political death warrant". Collins shot back "I may have signed my actual death warrant". He had. When he returned Irish leader De Valera rejected the terms and there was a civil war more destructive than the war against the British. Collins was killed in the fighting, but the treaty stood and Eire remained free.

The truth is that many nations start on less than ideal terms. You take what you can get and work from there, especially if you are in a weak position. The Palestinians don't ever seem to have fully grasped that, perhaps fooled by the nominal support of Muslim nations & some in the West. Initially that support was very real and potentially capable of getting what they want, but that has not been the case for 50 years and the terms get worse with every passing year.

[Officer of Engineers]

My comment was about the making of nation states in the 20th Century after the collapse and defeat of the Ottoman Empire and how the British & French didn't take tribal boundaries into account...mch as they did in Africa.

Actually, the Brits did. They gave as much control to the locals as they could muster. The territories the Brits control, they turned over to the locals, as did the French. IN short, the imperial boundaries between the empires were as much as the locals can control. The Royal Nigerian Regiment is an example.

It may have been 45 years ago but I remember this always from my Middle Eastern History & Politics classes. It was also a general sentiment with every Israeli & Turkish officer I met in Army schools.

45 years and the ONLY War of sign of settling their local borders is the Iran-Iraq War.

[S2]

"...the Israelis are burning babies."

HAMAS looked babies in the eyes and pulled triggers. There's a very real difference. That's not war. That's heinous murder.

[Goatboy]

Israel is not an ICC signatory. Neither is the US nor Russia.

Being a non-signatory nation doesn't stop active ICC investigations. Anyway, the top ICC prosecutor says the ICC has jurisdiction in Israel and Palestine, and Gaza over all events happening there. Palestine also joined the ICC in 2015, although that doesn't include Gaza presumably. Maybe they can't prosecute, but it sure as heck wouldn't feel good for a nation to be lumped in with the other "winners" of the ICC Crimes against Humanity "award": Rwanda, former Yugoslavia and Cambodia.

THE HAGUE, Netherlands, Oct 12 (Reuters) - The International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over potential war crimes carried out by Hamas militants in Israel and Israelis in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel is not a member state, the ICC's top prosecutor told Reuters on Thursday.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...or-2023-10-12/

[Officer of Engineers]

HAMAS looked babies in the eyes and pulled triggers. There's a very real difference. That's not war. That's heinous murder.

It's far worst than that. They didn't shoot the babies. They macheted them. They literally beheaded babies! That intel was confirmed by your POTUS Biden! However, while I can understand Israeli reactions, I cannot sanction Israeli burning babies.

It is the same thing with our nuclear doctrines. We can understand each other but we will not condone each other.

[Officer of Engineers]

Being a non-signatory nation doesn't stop active ICC investigations. Anyway, the top ICC prosecutor says the ICC has jurisdiction in Israel and Palestine, and Gaza over all events happening there. Palestine also joined the ICC in 2015, although that doesn't include Gaza presumably. Maybe they can't prosecute, but it sure as heck wouldn't feel good for a nation to be lumped in with the other "winners" of the ICC Crimes against Humanity "award": Rwanda, former Yugoslavia and Cambodia.

THE HAGUE, Netherlands, Oct 12 (Reuters) - The International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over potential war crimes carried out by Hamas militants in Israel and Israelis in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel is not a member state, the ICC's top prosecutor told Reuters on Thursday.

Get off it, ICC has zero jurisdiction, even amongst member countries. NOT ONE ICC signatory is planning a raid into Moscow to arrest Putin.

The ICC is nothing more than some pretend lawyers trying to be judges being paid some big dollars for pretending they care.