2023 Israeli-Gazan War

[rj1]

With no geographical margin for error, the IDF relies on world-class intelligence capabilities so they know when threats are coming.

We're writing this sentence days after a CIA 9/11-level intelligence failure?

[Amled]

Another option might be allowing a lot of Gazans to flee to Egypt

https://www.economist.com/middle-eas...-northern-gaza

Though I imagine it might require a lot of arm twisting by the US.

I doubt it!
For one thing, there’s probably too much bad history between Hamas and Egypt.
After all Hamas was founded on the dregs of the Muslim Brotherhood.
An organization that was banned in Egypt, and had thousands of its members either imprisoned, tortured and executed!
The whole situation with the Gazans is a classic one, with no good solutions, just choices between bad and worse!!!

[Goatboy]

Another option might be allowing a lot of Gazans to flee to Egypt

https://www.economist.com/middle-eas...-northern-gaza

Though I imagine it might require a lot of arm twisting by the US.

Egypt won't take a single Palestinian refugee, no matter what the U.S. says, and frankly I don't blame them. Once Palestinians are across the border in the Sinai, Egypt fears Israel won't allow them to return to Gaza. Egypt is right to fear this, after all, Israel shoved millions of Palestinians (including their descendants) out of pre-1967 Israel straight into Southern Lebanon and Jordan. These Palestinians have no right to return so why would Gazans be allowed to return?

Also, it would be politically impossible for Egypt to willingly take part in a "Nakba part 2" (part 1 was in 1948).

Ethnically cleansing an entire territory of inhabitants is also a war crime according to the UN, so there's that also....

[InExile]

Egypt won't take a single Palestinian refugee, no matter what the U.S. says, and frankly I don't blame them. Once Palestinians are across the border in the Sinai, Egypt fears Israel won't allow them to return to Gaza. Egypt is right to fear this, after all, Israel shoved millions of Palestinians (including their descendants) out of pre-1967 Israel straight into Southern Lebanon and Jordan. These Palestinians have no right to return so why would Gazans be allowed to return?

Also, it would be politically impossible for Egypt to willingly take part in a "Nakba part 2" (part 1 was in 1948).

Ethnically cleansing an entire territory of inhabitants is also a war crime according to the UN, so there's that also....

I agree ethnic cleansing is abhorrent, but seeing the absolute despair of the situation in Gaza, I think that the Gazans allowed to enter Egypt would have a better life. Anyhow without an evacuation we could be looking at a death toll in the tens of thousands or perhaps even higher

And besides that, I think that people can agree now that the two-state solution is never going to happen. It might be better to look at other options like a binational or confederated state where the Jews get control of the military and security while the Palestinians get equal civil rights and freedom of movement. Even that seems impossible now with the breakdown of trust and the widespread radicalization on both sides.

In recent years lip service to the two-state solution has simply become a way to accept that the Israeli occupation would go on in perpetuity.

[Monash]

I agree ethnic cleansing is abhorrent, but seeing the absolute despair of the situation in Gaza, I think that the Gazans allowed to enter Egypt would have a better life. Anyhow without an evacuation we could be looking at a death toll in the tens of thousands or perhaps even higher

And besides that, I think that people can agree now that the two-state solution is never going to happen. It might be better to look at other options like a binational or confederated state where the Jews get control of the military and security while the Palestinians get equal civil rights and freedom of movement. Even that seems impossible now with the breakdown of trust and the widespread radicalization on both sides.

In recent years lip service to the two-state solution has simply become a way to accept that the Israeli occupation would go on in perpetuity.

No other Arab States is willing to take them. Maybe they and anyone else who wants to 'chip in' can purchase a large chunk (not all) of the Sinai from Egypt then spend more billions on the water, power and other infrastructure needed to turn it into another high income gulf style 'statelet'. Sans oil of course. After all the entire region is big on 'vanity' city building projects, whats one more. Failing that?

[JRT]

Ethnically cleansing an entire territory of inhabitants is also a war crime according to the UN, so there's that also....

Says what authoratative source, exactly?

The United Nations' (Office On Genocide Prevention And The Responsibility To Protect) seem to say otherwise. Rather it seems that it is in the actions taken in the removal, and/or in the actions taken in coercing same, which may transgress the law, rather than the removal itself.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml
(excerpted to the quoted section below)

Ethnic Cleansing

Background

Ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law. The term surfaced in the context of the 1990’s conflict in the former Yugoslavia and is considered to come from a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian expression “etničko čišćenje”. However, the precise roots of the term or who started using it and why are still uncertain.

The expression “ethnic cleansing” has been used in resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, and has been acknowledged in judgments and indictments of the ICTY, although it did not constitute one of the counts for prosecution. A definition was never provided.

Definition

As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.

The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”

[Bigfella]

No other Arab States is willing to take them. Maybe they and anyone else who wants to 'chip in' can purchase a large chunk (not all) of the Sinai from Egypt then spend more billions to on the water, power and other infrastructure needed to turn it into another high income gulf style 'statelet'. Sans oil of course. After all the entire region is big on 'vanity' city building projects, whats one more. Failing that?

That would require other Arab states to care about helping Palestinians rather than just hurting Israel. Arab states will lift a finger to help, but not much more than a finger. Palestinians are a useful cause....at times....but not a problem anyone else wants to deal with.

[Albany Rifles]

That would require other Arab states to care about helping Palestinians rather than just hurting Israel. Arab states will lift a finger to help, but not much more than a finger. Palestinians are a useful cause....at times....but not a problem anyone else wants to deal with.

And lets not forget that thanks to the Brits there are divided tribes who want nothing to do with others.

But there are really some policies of the Israelis which would go away and make a negotiated peace better.

A man can dream.

[Versus]

That would require other Arab states to care about helping Palestinians rather than just hurting Israel. Arab states will lift a finger to help, but not much more than a finger. Palestinians are a useful cause....at times....but not a problem anyone else wants to deal with.

For decades they served as profitable generator of "freedom fighters" and to some extent served as an unifying factor in the early stages of post colonial system. Unfortunately for Hamas, they didn't get the memo that that story is over. All in all, at the end this all will end up to ISIS as the only solution for the Muslim world.

[Officer of Engineers]

And lets not forget that thanks to the Brits there are divided tribes who want nothing to do with others.

The divisions were there long before the Brits came to the scene. It took an Ottoman Army committing genocide to keep the tribes at peace.

[Officer of Engineers]

All it took for Hamas to turn the Jews into Nazis were 40 dead babies. It's easy to be butchers. Too damned easy.

[Bigfella]

And lets not forget that thanks to the Brits there are divided tribes who want nothing to do with others.

But there are really some policies of the Israelis which would go away and make a negotiated peace better.

A man can dream.

Don't go blaming the Brits. Nothing new about Arabs fighting Arabs, let alone others. Like other quarrelsome peoples they are capable of unity on occasion, but are as much or more comfortable beating the shit out of each other. If Britain & the US had never existed they would still be doing it. There was a reason ther UAR fell over, and it wasn't the legacy of the British.

Personally I can never work out why the Turks get a pass despite centuries of colonoal occupation but the Brits & the Yanks get blamed for every damned thing.

Israel could make things easier, but there isn't much motivation. Barak offered 92% of what the Palestinians wanted and got told to fuck off....and that was from the groups that don't openly preach Holocaust Mk.2.

This ends the same way it has ALWAYS been going to end - palestinians agree to terms they do not like. In 1948 they could have done that & had something like a functional nation. Had their Arab 'friends' been less keen on grabbing territory they could have done it in smaller borders before 1967. Since then the terms have just been getting worse & they will continue to do so.

My people signed a treaty on terrible terms to get their freedom. The man leading that delegation knew that signing would likely cost him his life, and it did. But they got their nation. If the Palestinians had leadership that brave they would have had a nation before any of us were born. Perhaps we will live to see a leader that brave, but the terms will just keep getting worse. As I keep saying, the people who matter don't care & the people who care don't matter. Either they take a bad deal or no deal.

[667medic]

Wow, that’s an insightful post man. Just curious, were you referring to South Sudan?

[Amled]

All it took for Hamas to turn the Jews into Nazis were 40 dead babies. It's easy to be butchers. Too damned easy.

Could also look at with Jewish optics.
That, the oath many Jews; and not just in Israel, have probably said to themselves; “Never Again”, comes with a price!
Even if that price means using methods reprehensible to prevent 40 slaughtered babies from becoming 400…4,000…or the people of Israel!
Which is one of the oft spoken and written goals of Hamas? Death to all Israelis!!!
The events of the last week have shown that they not only have the intent, but also the viciousness to go to any extreme!

[Officer of Engineers]

Could also look at with Jewish optics.

No matter what optics, you're talking Jews doing mass deportation into concentration camps.