2023 Israeli-Gazan War

[Albany Rifles]

Good time for there not being a Speaker in the House.

And a hold up of military appointments.

And a hold up of an ambassador to Israel.

Most of the countries in the Mid East

[TopHatter]

Good time for there not being a Speaker in the House.

And a hold up of military appointments.

And a hold up of an ambassador to Israel.

But MAGA, man!

[Albany Rifles]

If you mean "we" as in U.S., yeah I said the U.S. could. If you mean "we" as NATO, that's a more open question. The UK Defence Ministry said in the past 2 weeks they had nothing left to give Ukraine. Logic dictates they have nothing to give Israel unless they were lying about didn't have any more to give Ukraine.

Politico Playbook this morning said they have shipments already allocated to Israel, they'll just speed those up. If they have to do extra, an early Biden administration strategy was to tie Ukraine and Israel funding together on the same bill to force anti-Ukraine spending Republicans to vote against Israel funding and anti-Israel spending Democrats (so far just the Squad types although may extend to all DSA members if this goes on say a month) to vote against Ukraine funding. But private legislator comments was dubious on tying funding together if it meant an Israel package would not pass.

Dude, I won't do specifics for you but my job for the Army is to do all this work for a daily basis. It's why I was called into work on Saturday and have worked since. You can choose to take my word for it or not.

As for NATO...they are not nearly the strategic supplier of arms and munitions to Israel as we are. It all titled that way after the Six Day War. We supply over 80% of their foreign military imports. I think Germany is second with around 10%. The inability for NATO to help Israel has a miniscule impact. Also Israel has a robust defense industry and exports quite a bit.

[Amled]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/w...-killings.html

Hamas Leaves Trail of Terror in Israel

It’s usually been a given that the Powers-That-Be; when war has been declared, will try to “demonize” a potential enemy.
With Hamas they don’t even have to try!

[statquo]

Much has been said about how the Israelis got caught with their pants down. But how did they miss the level of sophistication of Hamas? Hamas went to school on the Israelis.

[Versus]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/w...-killings.html

It’s usually been a given that the Powers-That-Be; when war has been declared, will try to “demonize” a potential enemy.
With Hamas they don’t even have to try!

That is the price that both sides pay for their autistic hatred and psychosis that they induce on each other for centuries. So when you ask, what is more horrific, IDF laser guided bomb landing on a building full of Palestinans or HAMAS beheading babies and their mothers, is a false choice. Its bad both ways and it will only add to the cycle of violence. It will induce the trauma bond that cannot be resolved in any other way but with ultimate violence. It seems now, after this, that Israel will end the cycle of violence at what ever the cost might be. Hamas has won the brutality contest and the prize will be the disappearance of Gaza.

[Monash]

That is the price that both sides pay for their autistic hatred and psychosis that they induce on each other for centuries. So when you ask, what is more horrific, IDF laser guided bomb landing on a building full of Palestinans or HAMAS beheading babies and their mothers, is a false choice. Its bad both ways and it will only add to the cycle of violence. It will induce the trauma bond that cannot be resolved in any other way but with ultimate violence. It seems now, after this, that Israel will end the cycle of violence at what ever the cost might be. Hamas has won the brutality contest and the price will be the disappearance of Gaza.

I totally agree but the problem is your talking to deaf ears.There is literally no % in trying to argue that either side should seek peace via negotiation, all you do is cop abuse from both sides. Try to argue Israel has a right to exist? Your a Zionist. Suggest Palestinians deserve a right to an
independent state? You support terrorism. Suggest both sides should reach a compromise? Get yelled at by both sides.

My personal solution? Disengage. Put simply its not my problem, call me when both sides decide they need help in reaching a resolution. Until then? They more or less deserve each other, allowing of course for whichever side was responsible for the latest TV worthy atrocity. Which I suppose comes across as cruel and heartless but what other choice is there than to walk away?

[InExile]

I have long abhorred the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, the occupation of the West Bank, the grabbing of more and more land by the settlers, increasing violence against the Palestinians by radical settlers sometimes aided or at least condoned by the Israeli army.

Nevertheless, I wonder given the Islamist radicalization of large segments of the Palestinian population and widespread sympathy for Hamas, if such an expression of hatred and brutality leading to the butchering of innocent women and even babies might have occurred even if the Israeli's had treated the Palestinians with generosity. I am thinking like the murder of the Yazidis by ISIS simply for the reason of being of a different faith.

In the Palestinian viewpoint, the establishment of Israel was an intolerable provocation and only the end of Israel will be justice. I am not saying all Palestinians subscribe to this viewpoint though a majority probably do.

[Versus]

I have long abhorred the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, the occupation of the West Bank, the grabbing of more and more land by the settlers, increasing violence against the Palestinians by radical settlers sometimes aided or at least condoned by the Israeli army.

Nevertheless, I wonder given the Islamist radicalization of large segments of the Palestinian population and widespread sympathy for Hamas, if such an expression of hatred and brutality leading to the butchering of innocent women and even babies might have occurred even if the Israeli's had treated the Palestinians with generosity. I am thinking like the murder of the Yazidis by ISIS simply for the reason of being of a different faith.

In the Palestinian viewpoint, the establishment of Israel was an intolerable provocation and only the end of Israel will be justice. I am not saying all Palestinians subscribe to this viewpoint though a majority probably do.

Hamas's methods do not surprise me, I've seen that type of work here, both in Bosnia and Kosovo, but Trotsky media in the West didn't mind, because we were designated bad guys. However, I find it a bit odd for Israelis to be surprised.

[Versus]

I totally agree but the problem is your talking to deaf ears.There is literally no % in trying to argue that either side should seek peace via negotiation, all you do is cop abuse from both sides. Try to argue Israel has a right to exist? Your a Zionist. Suggest Palestinians deserve a right to an
independent state? You support terrorism. Suggest both sides should reach a compromise? Get yelled at by both sides.

My personal solution? Disengage. Put simply its not my problem, call me when both sides decide they need help in reaching a resolution. Until then? They more or less deserve each other, allowing of course for whichever side has recently committed the latest atrocity. Which I suppose comes accrss as cruel and heartless but what other choice is there than to walk away?

Yeah, you are right, its futile effort...

[Bigfella]

I totally agree but the problem is your talking to deaf ears.There is literally no % in trying to argue that either side should seek peace via negotiation, all you do is cop abuse from both sides. Try to argue Israel has a right to exist? Your a Zionist. Suggest Palestinians deserve a right to an
independent state? You support terrorism. Suggest both sides should reach a compromise? Get yelled at by both sides.

My personal solution? Disengage. Put simply its not my problem, call me when both sides decide they need help in reaching a resolution. Until then? They more or less deserve each other, allowing of course for whichever side has recently committed the latest atrocity. Which I suppose comes accrss as cruel and heartless but what other choice is there than to walk away?

I lean toward Israel for a variety of reasons - mostly that they are the closest thing to as functional democracy in the region but also the need for a Jewish state and the vile nature of organized opposition to Israel.

That said, I care vastly less than I used to. At some point I realized that it just didn't matter all that much. Whenever people get worked up about the poor, poor Palestineans I just tell them to imagine they are Africans, or Arabs being killed by Arabs, Turks or Iranians and suddenly they will find they really don't care.

I just spent a couple of years watching perhaps 500,000 people die in a war in a country I care deeply about and next to nobody knew or cared. If everyone who gets worked up now can ignore that I can ignore this.

[Albany Rifles]

I lean toward Israel for a variety of reasons - mostly that they are the closest thing to as functional democracy in the region but also the need for a Jewish state and the vile nature of organized opposition to Israel.

That said, I care vastly less than I used to. At some point I realized that it just didn't matter all that much. Whenever people get worked up about the poor, poor Palestineans I just tell them to imagine they are Africans, or Arabs being killed by Arabs, Turks or Iranians and suddenly they will find they really don't care.

I just spent a couple of years watching perhaps 500,000 people die in a war in a country I care deeply about and next to nobody knew or cared. If everyone who gets worked up now can ignore that I can ignore this.

Pete, as the news came from there my heart broke for you as I know how much you care and love of that country. I think the tipping point for apathy from us (West in general and US in particular) was when we didn't raise a finger during the Rwandan Genocide. We justified our inaction with by saying "That's a European problem since these were their colonies." From that point onward we shifted to Europe (Balkans) and turned our back on much of the 3rd world...which is criminal.

[Albany Rifles]

If true, this should be the end of this government. Entirely too many internal distractions given the political turmoil of Netanyahu and his government.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-...something-big/

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’

Cairo official says Israel focused on West Bank instead of Gaza; Egypt’s spy chief said to warn PM of ‘terrible operation,’ Netanyahu denies it


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (L) meets with Defense Minister Yoav Gallant (C) and military chiefs at IDF headquarters in Tel Aviv for a security assessment on October 8, 2023. (GPO)

Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for a surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big” — which included an apparent direct notice from Cairo’s intelligence minister to the prime minister.

The Egyptian official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown there in the face of a rising tide of violence over the last 18 months.


“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media, told The Associated Press.

Netanyahu denied receiving any such advance warning, saying in the course of an address to the nation Monday night that the story was “fake news.”

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“No early message came from Egypt and the prime minister did not speak or meet with the intelligence chief since the establishment of the government — not indirectly or directly,” his office said in a statement earlier in the day.

In one of the said warnings, Egypt’s Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do “something unusual, a terrible operation,” according to the Ynet news site.

Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu’s indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was “submerged” in troubles in the West Bank.

However, Israel was not only reportedly ignoring clear warnings from its allies.

For Palestinians in Gaza, Israel’s eyes are never very far away. Surveillance drones buzz constantly in the skies. The highly secured border is awash with security cameras and soldiers on guard. Intelligence agencies work sources and cyber capabilities to draw out information.

But Israel’s eyes appeared to have been closed in the lead-up to the surprise onslaught by the Hamas terror group, which broke through Israeli border barriers and sent hundreds of terrorists into Israel to carry out a brazen attack that killed over 700 people and wounded over 2,000.

Israel’s intelligence agencies have gained an aura of invincibility over the decades because of a string of achievements. Israel has foiled plots seeded in the West Bank, allegedly hunted down Hamas operatives in Dubai and has been accused of killing Iranian nuclear scientists in the heart of Iran. Even when their efforts have stumbled, agencies like the Mossad, Shin Bet and military intelligence have maintained their mystique.

But the weekend’s assault, which caught Israel off guard on a major Jewish holiday, plunges that reputation into doubt and raises questions about the country’s readiness in the face of a weaker but determined foe. Over 48 hours after the start of the attack, Hamas terrorists continued to battle Israeli forces inside Israeli territory, and over 100 Israelis were in Hamas captivity in Gaza.

“This is a major failure,” said Yaakov Amidror, a former national security adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. “This operation actually proves that the [intelligence] abilities in Gaza were no good.”

Amidror declined to offer an explanation for the failure, saying lessons must be learned when the dust settles.

Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, the chief military spokesman, acknowledged the army owes the public an explanation. But he said now is not the time. “First, we fight, then we investigate,” he said.

Some say it is too early to pin the blame solely on an intelligence failure. They point to a wave of low-level violence in the West Bank that shifted some military resources there and the political chaos roiling the country over steps by Netanyahu’s far-right government to overhaul the judiciary. The controversial plan has threatened the cohesion of the IDF, seen as the people’s army.

But the apparent lack of prior knowledge of Hamas’s plot will likely be seen as a prime culprit in the chain of events that led to the deadliest attack against Israelis in decades.

Israel withdrew troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, stripping it of a close handle on the happenings in the territory. But even after Hamas overran Gaza in 2007, Israel appeared to maintain its edge, using technological and human intelligence.

It claimed to know the precise locations of Hamas leadership and appeared to prove it through the targeted killing of terror leaders in surgical strikes, sometimes while they slept in their bedrooms. Israel has known where to strike underground tunnels used by Hamas to ferry around fighters and arms, destroying miles (kilometers) of the concealed passageways.

Despite those abilities, Hamas was able to keep its plan under wraps. The ferocious attack, which likely took months of planning and meticulous training and involved coordination among multiple terror groups, appeared to have gone under Israel’s intelligence radar.

Amir Avivi, a retired Israeli general, said that without a foothold inside Gaza, Israel’s security services have come to rely increasingly on technological means to gain intelligence. He said terrorists in Gaza have found ways to evade that technological intelligence gathering, giving Israel an incomplete picture of their intentions.

“The other side learned to deal with our technological dominance and they stopped using technology that could expose it,” said Avivi, who served as a conduit for intelligence materials under a former military chief of staff. Avivi is president and founder of Israel Defense and Security Forum, a hawkish group of former military commanders.

“They’ve gone back to the Stone Age,” he said, explaining that terrorists weren’t using phones or computers and were conducting their sensitive business in rooms specially guarded from technological espionage or going underground.

But Avivi said the failure extends beyond just intelligence gathering and Israel’s security services failed to put together an accurate picture from the intelligence they were receiving, based on what he said was a misconception surrounding Hamas’s intentions.

Israel’s security establishment has in recent years increasingly seen Hamas as an actor interested in governing, seeking to develop Gaza’s economy and improving the standard of living of Gaza’s 2.3 million people. But Avivi and others say the truth is that Hamas, which openly calls for Israel’s destruction, sees that aim as its priority.

Israel in recent years has allowed up to 18,000 Palestinian laborers from Gaza to work in Israel, where they can earn a salary about 10 times higher than in the impoverished coastal enclave. The security establishment saw that carrot as a way to maintain relative calm.

“In practice, hundreds if not thousands of Hamas men were preparing for a surprise attack for months, without that having leaked,” wrote Amos Harel, a defense commentator, in the daily Haaretz. “The results are catastrophic.”

Israel has also been preoccupied and torn apart by Netanyahu’s judicial overhaul plan. Netanyahu had received repeated warnings by his defense chiefs, as well as several former leaders of the country’s intelligence agencies, that the divisive plan was chipping away at the cohesion of the country’s security services.


Martin Indyk, who served as a special envoy for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations during the Obama administration, said internal divisions over the legal changes was an aggravating factor that contributed to the Israelis being caught off guard.

“That roiled the IDF in a way that was, I think, we discovered was a huge distraction,” he said.

[Bigfella]

Pete, as the news came from there my heart broke for you as I know how much you care and love of that country. I think the tipping point for apathy from us (West in general and US in particular) was when we didn't raise a finger during the Rwandan Genocide. We justified our inaction with by saying "That's a European problem since these were their colonies." From that point onward we shifted to Europe (Balkans) and turned our back on much of the 3rd world...which is criminal.

Thanks Buck, I appreciate that.

know there were good people who did care and I generally don't judge people who pick and choose what they focus on. In a world awash in information we all filter. To me Ethiopia is a powerful reminder that we do all filter, and I am thus not morally bound to care about higher profile conflicts unless I have a particular stake. I do have an attachement of sorts to one side in this fight, but I don't like either.

[statquo]

I totally agree but the problem is your talking to deaf ears.There is literally no % in trying to argue that either side should seek peace via negotiation, all you do is cop abuse from both sides. Try to argue Israel has a right to exist? Your a Zionist. Suggest Palestinians deserve a right to an
independent state? You support terrorism. Suggest both sides should reach a compromise? Get yelled at by both sides.

My personal solution? Disengage. Put simply not my problem, call me when both sides decide they need help in reaching a resolution. Until then? They more or less deserve each other, allowing of course for whichever side has recently committed the latest atrocity. Which I suppose comes accrss as cruel and heartless but what other choice is there than to walk away?

It doesn’t benefit anyone in the powers of status quo. Autocracies in the region who shit on their people can just point to the Israelis and say look at what they do to the Palestinians. Doesn’t benefit Hamas or Iran or the West Bank rulers or the West in general because it will usurp their power and influence. The only people that would benefit from peace are everyday Palestinians and Israelis, in my opinion at least.