2023 Israeli-Gazan War

[rj1]

I remember the same Netanyahu accepting and giving an address to Congress in 2015, blindsiding the Obama administration, as he and Republicans pushed for political points because of the Iran deal. I think the GOP even announced his address the day after the State of the Union address. No visit to Obama, no Dems attended the speech, just pure politics.

Foreign leaders gaming your Congress?..

I know it happens, I'm not naive, but it shouldn't. Foreign countries trying to implement regime change in allies is a great way to make countries not allies. And if Israel are not the U.S. government's ally, why are we sending them arms and giving them technical support currently?

[Monash]

I know it happens, I'm not naive, but it shouldn't. Foreign countries trying to implement regime change in allies is a great way to make countries not allies. And if Israel are not the U.S. government's ally, why are we sending them arms and giving them technical support currently?

The answer is basically conservative US politics. Normally? Any prosperous democratic state is a natural fit with the US and it's network of global alliances. Israel as it exists today (as opposed to what how it was even 30 years ago? That's an open question.

[rj1]

The answer is basically conservative US politics.

You underestimate AIPAC. They're primarying almost every single BDS or adjacent Democrat.

We give arms to Israel, we give arms to Egypt, we give arms to Saudi, we give arms to Turkey, we give arms to Iraq. Maybe it's all just a big scam?

[Monash]

You underestimate AIPAC. They're primarying almost every single BDS or adjacent Democrat.

We give arms to Israel, we give arms to Egypt, we give arms to Saudi, we give arms to Turkey, we give arms to Iraq. Maybe it's all just a big scam?

You do. But generally the tap gets turned off pretty quickly if any of those other countries start behaving in ways the administration of the day doesn't like or if they start using those weapons in ways the US disagrees with. Turkey and it's recent F-16 'issue' springs to mind as an example. In Israel's case?

[rj1]

You do. But generally the tap gets turned off pretty quickly if any of those other countries start behaving in ways the administration of the day doesn't like or if they start using those weapons in ways the US disagrees with. Turkey and it's recent F-16 'issue' springs to mind as an example. In Israel's case?

We instigated (or at least co-signed) a coup in Egypt when we didn't like who they elected (which was a pro-Israel result while Obama was still President) and the Saudis openly assassinated a dissident in Turkey. We never cut off the taps I think. The Saudis stand out pretty egregiously this century in fact considering one of the planners for 9/11 has been alleged to be one of their diplomats based here at the time.

[Monash]

We instigated (or at least co-signed) a coup in Egypt when we didn't like who they elected (which was a pro-Israel result while Obama was still President) and the Saudis openly assassinated a dissident in Turkey. We never cut off the taps I think. The Saudis stand out pretty egregiously this century in fact considering one of the planners for 9/11 has been alleged to be one of their diplomats based here at the time.

The Saudi's were 'needed' but given less latitude after 9/11. To clarify though I did say 'turn off' not cut. After all there's lots of $$ to be made from selling things that go 'boom' to foreign governments and lots of Congressmen with defense contractors in their districts.

[Goatboy]

Clearly, Israel needs to be told what to do and how to behave by the United States, or more specifically, Netanyahu has to be slapped down and scolded and made to understand who is ultimately his boss when the chips come down.

The alternative is disastrous for American foreign policy and a pathetic simping expedition to boot. Cutting Israel down to size is good for the planet, and also for Israeli security. Palestinian suffering is Center Stage and frankly renders Israeli hostages secondary given the Galaxy of suffering by the Palestinians over decades.

Let's spice this up.....

[Monash]

Clearly, Israel needs to be told what to do and how to behave by the United States, or more specifically, Netanyahu has to be slapped down and scolded and made to understand who is ultimately his boss when the chips come down.

The alternative is disastrous for American foreign policy and a pathetic simping expedition to boot. Cutting Israel down to size is good for the planet, and also for Israeli security. Palestinian suffering is Center Stage and frankly renders Israeli hostages secondary given the Galaxy of suffering by the Palestinians over decades.

Let's spice this up.....

I'm not sure that's exactly true. For domestic political reasons (popular support by evangelical/conservative Christian Churches) consecutive US administrations have given Israel significant leeway in terms its actions regarding it's domestic palestinian population and military actions in the middle east in general. More leeway in fact than they tend to grant other 'allied' nations I can think of.

The problem for Biden though is that the former condition (domestic US support) hasn't changed and there's an election pending. So there's only so far he can go in terms of reigning in Netanyahu. Yes, Biden is still pushing (and given Netanyahu's performance in office justifiably so) but there are limits. That said this as of today this is the closest I can think of in living memory that any US administration has come to telling Israel to "pull it's head in'.

[Albany Rifles]

That said this as of today this is the closest I can think of in living memory that any US administration has come to telling Israel to "pull it's head in'.

Kennedy, who had dropped the Truman-Eisenhower arms embargo, seriously admonished Israel over its Dimona nuclear territory in 1963.

Nixon & Kissinger pressured Israel not to destroy the surrounded Egyptian Third Army in 1973.

Reagan pounded on Begin to end the Lebanon War of 1982 and forced that war to end, some say, prematurely.

But without a doubt the closest we have come to this moment was when Ike sided with Egypt & The Soviet Union over the Suez Crisis in 1956. The Netanyahu Government is on borrowed time as far as support is concerned. His polls have turned against him and he has majorly pissed off his most important ally.

[Albany Rifles]

From the department of "round up the usual suspects" it is not surprising a few relatively junior officers have been selected as the scapegoats.

It has become apparent that Israel has thrown the norms out the window.

a. Basic target deconfliction to minimize civilian targets has been out the window since the first week. The munitions sizes being used in urban operations are too big for minimizing civilian collateral damage. In instances where a 250 or 500 pound bomb would be the preferred munition they are using 1000 & 2000 pounders.

b. Part of the reason, I believe, for this excessive weapon selection is their intelligence services have lost something off their fastball. Much of this, I believe from reading elsewhere, is the Shin Bet and others were more focused inward prior to 7 OCT 23. So their normal precision targeting has gone by the way side forcing the Air Force to go with larger weapons. Also these "massive Hamas headquarters" in the basements of hospitals have appeared to be hollow reeds.

I am a staunch supporter of Israel...I always have. But I have a LOT of problems with Israeli Government policies.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...rs-2024-04-05/

Israel sacks two officers after finding grave errors in strike on aid workers

By James Mackenzie and Rami Amichay


JERUSALEM, April 5 (Reuters) - An Israeli inquiry into the killing of seven aid workers in an air strike in Gaza this week found serious errors and breaches of procedure by the military, with the result that two officers have been dismissed and senior commanders formally reprimanded.
The inquiry found Israeli forces mistakenly believed they were attacking Hamas gunmen when drone strikes hit the three vehicles of the World Central Kitchen aid group late on Monday night, and that standard procedures had been violated.
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"The strike on the aid vehicles is a grave mistake stemming from a serious failure due to a mistaken identification, errors in decision-making, and an attack contrary to the Standard Operating Procedures," the military said in a statement issued on Friday.
The killing of the seven aid workers, who included citizens of Britain, Australia and Poland, a dual U.S. Canadian national and a Palestinian colleague, triggered global outrage this week.
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U.S. President Joe Biden threatened a shift in U.S. policy towards Israel unless it reduced harm to civilians and aid workers in Gaza, which already depended on aid before the war and has seen hunger spread far and wide since fighting began six months ago.
The military said the aid convoy the light vehicles were accompanying had stopped at a hangar where the trucks were unloaded before moving off.
An armed man had been seen on the roof of one of the trucks and, as the three light vehicles left the hangar, commanders did not identify those vehicles as belonging to WCK, the military statement said.

Yoav Har-Even, the head of the IDF Fact Finding and Assessment Mechanism who led the inquiry, said forces had been unable to see the WCK logos on the roofs of the vehicles in the dark, and had mistakenly acted on the belief that they had been seized by Hamas fighters.
"The state of mind at that time was that the humanitarian mission had ended and that they were tracking Hamas vehicles with one suspected gunman, at least one suspected gunman, that they misidentified to be inside one of the three cars," he told reporters in a briefing.

"They struck that car and then they identified people running out of the car and entering a second car, which is when they decided to strike the second car. Then two people left the second car and entered the third car, which is when they struck the third car."
Those strikes were in breach of IDF standard operating procedures, he said.
The military said it had dismissed a brigade chief of staff with the rank of colonel and a brigade fire support officer with the rank of major, and formally reprimanded senior officers including the general at the head of the Southern Command.
Jose Andres, the chef who founded World Central Kitchen, said this week the seven workers had been targeted "systematically, car by car" as they moved to seek shelter when their vehicles were hit in succession.
The army pledged to address the fact that it had been unable to see the rooftop logos in the dark as part of a wider package of lessons to draw from the disaster.

[Monash]

From the department of "round up the usual suspects" it is not surprising a few relatively junior officers have been selected as the scapegoats.

It has become apparent that Israel has thrown the norms out the window.

a. Basic target deconfliction to minimize civilian targets has been out the window since the first week. The munitions sizes being used in urban operations are too big for minimizing civilian collateral damage. In instances where a 250 or 500 pound bomb would be the preferred munition they are using 1000 & 2000 pounders.

b. Part of the reason, I believe, for this excessive weapon selection is their intelligence services have lost something off their fastball. Much of this, I believe from reading elsewhere, is the Shin Bet and others were more focused inward prior to 7 OCT 23. So their normal precision targeting has gone by the way side forcing the Air Force to go with larger weapons. Also these "massive Hamas headquarters" in the basements of hospitals have appeared to be hollow reeds.

I am a staunch supporter of Israel...I always have. But I have a LOT of problems with Israeli Government policies.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...rs-2024-04-05/

So. If the officers are being scapegoated and have been 'fired' a couple of questions come to mind. Firstly, what 'room' do they have to go public about the circumstances surrounding their dismissal and secondly in this sort of case does dismissal mean really mean fired? (As opposed to being moved horizontally to a civil service role somewhere. Lastly if they actually did commit serious errors as claimed why aren't they facing formal charges and a court marshal or its equivalent

I'm must confess though that I'm a bit suspicious of the 'They couldn't see properly in the dark' claim. Who has troops performing FO/TACP roles these days with the mark one eyeball? IF true it smacks of a general 'if it moves kill it ' approach to target identification and engagement in this campaign, although again that would explain certainly a lot.

[Albany Rifles]

IF true it smacks of a general 'if it moves kill it ' approach to target identification and engagement in this campaign, although again that would explain certainly a lot.

I believe as a matter of reality, if not policy, this has in fact become de facto policy on the ground. Any military age male Gazan under 30 is automatically treated as an Hamas fighter.

As for your later, I see they have been removed from key roles and reassigned to backwater slots. But Israel cannot afford to lose anyone from uniform...not with the Hassidic young male excused from duty...more than 1 in 5.

[Monash]

IF true it smacks of a general 'if it moves kill it ' approach to target identification and engagement in this campaign, although again that would explain certainly a lot.

I believe as a matter of reality, if not policy, this has in fact become de facto policy on the ground. Any military age male Gazan under 30 is automatically treated as an Hamas fighter.

As for your later, I see they have been removed from key roles and reassigned to backwater slots. But Israel cannot afford to lose anyone from uniform...not with the Hassidic young male excused from duty...more than 1 in 5.

According to reports I've seen the Israeli High Court has recently issued a judgement ending those exemptions. (And about time too.) I've always been gobsmacked by the idea that the segment of Israel's population whose leadership regularly calls for the introduction of a Zionist State, the seizure of all land owned by and the expulsion of Palestinians from Israeli 'territory' and even the expansion it's borders to (ancient) historical limits is also exempted from having to fight in any wars that might result from those aims! And to top that off? Also being entitled to state pensions so they can be free of the obligation of having to work for a living or from having paying taxes! (Which coincidentally are the next two issues that IMO need serious examination by the Courts).

Very easy to support armed conflict if you personally are never at risk of having to fight in it or even have to work and pay the taxes that fund it!

[Officer of Engineers]

Iranian drones attacking Israel

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/13/middl...tam/index.html

[Officer of Engineers]

Iran launches massive drone and missile attack against Israel

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...nline_manual_1