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  • Reported other places but this had no pay wall.

    This won't end well for Bibi.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ar-1234906803/


    Israel Knew Hamas’ Attack Plan a Year Before Oct. 7: Report

    Israeli officials had initially dismissed Hamas' plan as overly ambitious, the New York Times reports

    BY CHARISMA MADARANG

    NOVEMBER 30, 2023Hamas' armed wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades destroy a tank of Israeli forces in Gaza City, Gaza on Oct. 7, 2023. HANI ALSHAER/ANADOLU AGENCY/GETTY IMAGES


    A YEAR BEFORE Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel, a document detailing plans to carry out the assault circulated among Israeli officials, according to the New York Times.

    While the approximately 40-page document reviewed by the Times did not mark a specific attack date, methods of the assault aimed at overwhelming Israeli defenses around the Gaza Strip and plans to storm key military bases and cities were reportedly outlined. The document had been code-named “Jericho Wall” by Israeli authorities, and laid out a plan for an onslaught of rockets, drones intended to incapacitate security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to enter Israel via paragliders, motorcylces, and on foot, per the report.

    Leaders initially brushed off the attack plans as too complex for Hamas to execute, the Times reported. On Oct. 7, these series of assaults in Israel were carried out and led to the death of 1,200 people and the abduction of 200 hostages.

    According to the Times, three months before the attack, a veteran analyst with Israel’s signals intelligence agency warned that Hamas had undergone a training exercise similar to what was detailed in the blueprint. However, according to emails viewed by the publication, her concerns were dismissed by a colonel in the Gaza division.

    “I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary,” the analyst wrote in an email. “It is a plan designed to start a war,” she added. “It’s not just a raid on a village.”

    Israel’s Channel 12 on Monday previously reported on the leaked emails from Israeli military’s 8200 cyber-intelligence unit, per The Guardian, which said the source of the warning was a non-commissioned officer (NCO).

    In defense of her findings, the NCO said, “They are training, in large forces, for a big event. This is not a parade of power, this is preparation for the real thing.”

    Days after the attack in October, Israeli officials told Axios that the night before the assault, Israeli intelligence saw signs of irregular activity among Hamas operatives in Gaza. Although high-level consultations took place that day before, Israeli leaders decided to wait for more intelligence before putting IDF forces around Gaza on high alert, according to Axios. Hamas attacked several hours later.

    In their separate report, the Times said that officials privately admitted that had the military considered these warnings seriously and taken steps to fortify the south, Israel could have mitigated or even prevented Hamas’ deadly attack.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
      Reported other places but this had no pay wall.

      This won't end well for Bibi.

      https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ar-1234906803/


      He will dedicate himself to blaming everyone else, but I don't think it will save him. There is going to be a BIG shakeup in the Israeli military & security services when this is done. There will be heads rolling all over the place. The scale of this fuck up is remarkable. Hubris kills.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

        He will dedicate himself to blaming everyone else, but I don't think it will save him. There is going to be a BIG shakeup in the Israeli military & security services when this is done. There will be heads rolling all over the place. The scale of this fuck up is remarkable. Hubris kills.
        The problem remains though that given the highly unstable nature of the Israeli political system kicking Bibi out of office (hopefully to then stand trial on corruption charges) isn't going to change much if anything. Whoever replaces him will be a captive of the same kind of political compromises and deal making that kept him in office to begin with. If Israel is really, really lucky the back blast from his recent actions and failures will let some kind of center/ left wing coalition take office long enough to maybe achieve two things;

        First some kind of referendum on a bare bones Constitution that at least clearly delineates the rolls and powers of the President, the Prime Minister the State and the Courts and perhaps (my pet wish) establishes a State anti-corruption process with teeth. Secondly some kind of 'reset' on the Gaza situation (I won't use the term peace deal because, well who would I be kidding?) But as I said that's only if Israel is really, really, lucky and what are the chances of that?
        Last edited by Monash; 02 Dec 23,, 05:53.
        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

          He will dedicate himself to blaming everyone else, but I don't think it will save him. There is going to be a BIG shakeup in the Israeli military & security services when this is done. There will be heads rolling all over the place. The scale of this fuck up is remarkable. Hubris kills.
          As in 1973...
          __________________________________________________ _______________________

          Though the war reinforced Israel's military deterrence, it had a stunning effect on the population in Israel. Following their victory in the Six-Day War, the Israeli military had become complacent. The shock and sudden reversals that occurred at the beginning of the war inflicted a terrible psychological blow to the Israelis, who had hitherto experienced no serious military challenges.[436]

          A protest against the Israeli government started four months after the war ended. It was led by Motti Ashkenazi, commander of Budapest, the northernmost of the Bar-Lev forts and the only one during the war not to be captured by the Egyptians.[437] Anger against the Israeli government (and Dayan in particular) was high. Shimon Agranat, President of the Israeli Supreme Court, was asked to lead an inquiry, the Agranat Commission, into the events leading up to the war and the setbacks of the first few days.[438]

          The Agranat Commission published its preliminary findings on 2 April 1974. Six people were held particularly responsible for Israel's failings:
          • Though his performance and conduct during the war was lauded,[439] IDF Chief of Staff David Elazar was recommended for dismissal after the Commission found he bore "personal responsibility for the assessment of the situation and the preparedness of the IDF".
          • Aman Chief, Aluf Eli Zeira, and his deputy, head of Research, Brigadier-General Aryeh Shalev, were recommended for dismissal.
          • Lt. Colonel Bandman, head of the Aman desk for Egypt, and Lt. Colonel Gedelia, chief of intelligence for the Southern Command, were recommended for transfer away from intelligence duties.
          • Shmuel Gonen, commander of the Southern front, was recommended by the initial report to be relieved of active duty.[440] He was forced to leave the army after the publication of the Commission's final report, on 30 January 1975, which found that "he failed to fulfill his duties adequately, and bears much of the responsibility for the dangerous situation in which our troops were caught."[441][better source needed]

          Rather than quieting public discontent, the report—which "had stressed that it was judging the ministers' responsibility for security failings, not their parliamentary responsibility, which fell outside its mandate"—inflamed it. Although it had absolved Meir and Dayan of all responsibility, public calls for their resignations (especially Dayan's) intensified.[440] In the December 1973 legislative election, Meir's Alignment party lost five Knesset seats.

          On 11 April 1974, Golda Meir resigned. Her cabinet followed suit, including Dayan, who had previously offered to resign twice and was turned down both times by Meir. A new government was seated in June and Yitzhak Rabin, who had spent most of the war as an advisor to Elazar in an unofficial capacity, became Prime Minister.[442]

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Monash View Post

            The problem remains though that given the highly unstable nature of the Israeli political system kicking Bibi out of office (hopefully to then stand trial on corruption charges) isn't going to change much if anything. However replaces him will be a captive of the same kind of political compromises and deal making that kept him in office to begin with. If Israel is really, really lucky the back blast from his recent actions and failures will let some kind of center/ left wing coalition take office long enough to maybe achieve two things;

            First some kind of referendum on a bare bones Constitution that at least clearly delineates the rolls and powers of the President, the Prime Minister the State and the Courts and perhaps (my pet wish) establishes a State anti-corruption process with teeth. Secondly some kind of 'reset' on the Gaza situation (I won't use the term peace deal because, well who would I be kidding?) But as I said that's only if Israel is really, really, lucky and what are the chances of that?
            I think you might see some of that. I'm not sure any new government will have the stomach for constitutional change after the last year or so - it risks handing an issue to focus the opposition. Other goals may be more achieveable. An anti-corruption body and some sort of deal with the Palestineans might be possible, but what any of that looks like is anyone's guess.
            sigpic

            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

              As in 1973...
              __________________________________________________ _______________________

              Though the war reinforced Israel's military deterrence, it had a stunning effect on the population in Israel. Following their victory in the Six-Day War, the Israeli military had become complacent. The shock and sudden reversals that occurred at the beginning of the war inflicted a terrible psychological blow to the Israelis, who had hitherto experienced no serious military challenges.[436]

              A protest against the Israeli government started four months after the war ended. It was led by Motti Ashkenazi, commander of Budapest, the northernmost of the Bar-Lev forts and the only one during the war not to be captured by the Egyptians.[437] Anger against the Israeli government (and Dayan in particular) was high. Shimon Agranat, President of the Israeli Supreme Court, was asked to lead an inquiry, the Agranat Commission, into the events leading up to the war and the setbacks of the first few days.[438]

              The Agranat Commission published its preliminary findings on 2 April 1974. Six people were held particularly responsible for Israel's failings:
              • Though his performance and conduct during the war was lauded,[439] IDF Chief of Staff David Elazar was recommended for dismissal after the Commission found he bore "personal responsibility for the assessment of the situation and the preparedness of the IDF".
              • Aman Chief, Aluf Eli Zeira, and his deputy, head of Research, Brigadier-General Aryeh Shalev, were recommended for dismissal.
              • Lt. Colonel Bandman, head of the Aman desk for Egypt, and Lt. Colonel Gedelia, chief of intelligence for the Southern Command, were recommended for transfer away from intelligence duties.
              • Shmuel Gonen, commander of the Southern front, was recommended by the initial report to be relieved of active duty.[440] He was forced to leave the army after the publication of the Commission's final report, on 30 January 1975, which found that "he failed to fulfill his duties adequately, and bears much of the responsibility for the dangerous situation in which our troops were caught."[441][better source needed]

              Rather than quieting public discontent, the report—which "had stressed that it was judging the ministers' responsibility for security failings, not their parliamentary responsibility, which fell outside its mandate"—inflamed it. Although it had absolved Meir and Dayan of all responsibility, public calls for their resignations (especially Dayan's) intensified.[440] In the December 1973 legislative election, Meir's Alignment party lost five Knesset seats.

              On 11 April 1974, Golda Meir resigned. Her cabinet followed suit, including Dayan, who had previously offered to resign twice and was turned down both times by Meir. A new government was seated in June and Yitzhak Rabin, who had spent most of the war as an advisor to Elazar in an unofficial capacity, became Prime Minister.[442]
              Given what has already leaked its safe to assume any investigation is going to wreck a whole bunch of careers. Normally I'd say there is no way Bibi can get out of this, but he is such a cockroach that it is impossible to be sure. He certainly shouldn't be able to survive.
              sigpic

              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

                Given what has already leaked its safe to assume any investigation is going to wreck a whole bunch of careers. Normally I'd say there is no way Bibi can get out of this, but he is such a cockroach that it is impossible to be sure. He certainly shouldn't be able to survive.
                So are you saying he doesn't have a shred of honor like Golda...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                  So are you saying he doesn't have a shred of honor like Golda...
                  Got it in one.
                  sigpic

                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                  Comment


                  • The Pentagon says US warship, commercial ships attacked in Red Sea. Houthis claim attacking 2 ships



                    DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — An American warship and multiple commercial ships came under attack Sunday in the Red Sea, the Pentagon said. Yemen's Houthi rebels later claimed attacks on two ships they described as being linked to Israel, but did not acknowledge targeting a U.S. Navy vessel.

                    The attack potentially marked a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war.

                    “We’re aware of reports regarding attacks on the USS Carney and commercial vessels in the Red Sea and will provide information as it becomes available,” the Pentagon told The Associated Press.

                    The Carney is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. It remained unclear what damage, if any, the vessels sustained in the attacks.

                    The British military earlier said there had been a suspected drone attack and explosions in the Red Sea, without elaborating.

                    The Pentagon did not identify where it believed the fire came from. However, Houthi military spokesman Brig. Gen. Yahya Saree claimed the attacks, saying the first vessel was hit by a missile and the second by a drone while in the Bab el-Mandeb Strait that links the Red Sea to the Gulf of Aden. He described the ships as allegedly ignoring warnings from Houthi officials prior to the attack.

                    Saree did not mention any U.S. warship being involved in the attack.

                    “The Yemeni armed forces continue to prevent Israeli ships from navigating the Red Sea (and Gulf of Aden) until the Israeli aggression against our steadfast brothers in the Gaza Strip stops,” Saree said. “The Yemeni armed forces renew their warning to all Israeli ships or those associated with Israelis that they will become a legitimate target if they violate what is stated in this statement.”

                    Saree identified the first vessel attacked as the Bahamas-flagged bulk carrier Unity Explorer, which is owned by a British firm that includes Dan David Ungar, who lives in Israel, as one of its officers. The second was a Panamanian-flagged container ship called Number 9, which is linked to Bernhard Schulte Shipmanagement. Managers for the two vessels could not be immediately reached for comment.

                    Israeli media identified Ungar as being the son of Israeli shipping billionaire Abraham “Rami” Ungar.

                    The Houthis have been launching a series of attacks on vessels in the Red Sea, as well as launching drones and missiles targeting Israel amid the war.

                    A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said the attack began about 10 a.m. in Sanaa, Yemen, and had gone on for as much as five hours. Another U.S. official who similarly spoke on condition of anonymity for the same reason said the Carney had intercepted at least one drone during the attack.

                    Global shipping had increasingly been targeted as the Israel-Hamas war threatens to become a wider regional conflict — even as a truce briefly halted fighting and Hamas exchanged hostages for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. However, the collapse of the truce and the resumption of punishing Israeli airstrikes and its ground offensive there had raised the risk of the seaborne attacks resuming.

                    Earlier in November, the Houthis seized a vehicle transport ship also linked to Israel in the Red Sea off Yemen. The rebels still hold the vessel near the port city of Hodeida. Missiles also landed near another U.S. warship last week after it assisted a vessel linked to Israel that had briefly been seized by gunmen.

                    However, the Houthis had not directly targeted the Americans for some time, further raising the stakes in the growing maritime conflict. In 2016, the U.S. launched Tomahawk cruise missiles that destroyed three coastal radar sites in Houthi-controlled territory to retaliate for missiles being fired at U.S. Navy ships at the time.

                    ___
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • Quite a long article from the BBC. After reading it, and not assuming everything is 100% provable but that a great majority is, I see no way Israel can ever let up on Hamas until they are eliminated. The crimes committed on individuals by Hamas fighters rivals, and may surpass, what the Nazis did. This will join the Holocaust in being remembered over the ages.
                      __________________________________________________ _______________________

                      Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears

                      The BBC has seen and heard evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women during the 7 October Hamas attacks.
                      WARNING: CONTAINS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE

                      Several people involved in collecting and identifying the bodies of those killed in the attack told us they had seen multiple signs of sexual assault, including broken pelvises, bruises, cuts and tears, and that the victims ranged from children and teenagers to pensioners.

                      Video testimony of an eyewitness at the Nova music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police, detailed the gang rape, mutilation and execution of one victim.

                      Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers.

                      Few victims are thought to have survived to tell their own stories.

                      Their last moments are being pieced together from survivors, body-collectors, morgue staff and footage from the attack sites.

                      Police have privately shown journalists a single horrific testimony that they filmed of a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the attack.

                      She describes seeing Hamas fighters gang rape a woman and mutilate her, before the last of her attackers shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.

                      In the video, the woman known as Witness S mimes the attackers picking up and passing the victim from one to another.

                      "She was alive," the witness says. "She was bleeding from her back."

                      She goes on to detail how the men cut off parts of the victim's body during the assault.

                      "They sliced her breast and threw it on the street," she says. "They were playing with it."

                      The victim was passed to another man in uniform, she continues.

                      "He penetrated her, and shot her in the head before he finished. He didn't even pick up his pants; he shoots and ejaculates."

                      One man we spoke to from the festival site said he heard the "noises and screams of people being murdered, raped, decapitated".

                      To our question about how he could be sure - without seeing it - that the screams he heard indicated sexual assault rather than other kinds of violence, he said he believed while listening at the time that it could only have been rape.

                      A statement he made through a support organisation describes it as "inhuman".

                      "Some women were raped before they were dead, some raped while injured, and some were already dead when the terrorists raped their lifeless bodies," his statement says. "I desperately wanted to help, but there was nothing I could do."

                      Police say they have "multiple" eye-witness accounts of sexual assault, but wouldn't give any more clarification on how many. When we spoke to them, they hadn't yet interviewed any surviving victims.

                      Israel's Women's Empowerment Minister, May Golan, told the BBC that a few victims of rape or sexual assault had survived the attacks, and that they were all currently receiving psychiatric treatment.
                      "But very, very few. The majority were brutally murdered," she said. "They aren't able to talk - not with me, and not to anyone from the government [or] from the media."

                      Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.

                      In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.

                      Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.

                      "It really feels like Hamas learned how to weaponise women's bodies from ISIS [the Islamic State group] in Iraq, from cases in Bosnia," said Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, a legal expert at the Davis Institute of International Relations at Hebrew University.

                      "It brings me chills just to know the details that they knew about what to do to women: cut their organs, mutilate their genitals, rape. It's horrifying to know this."


                      "I spoke with at least three girls who are now hospitalised for a very hard psychiatric situation because of the rapes they watched," Minister May Golan told me. "They pretended to be dead and they watched it, and heard everything. And they can't deal with it."

                      Israel's police chief Yaacov Shabtai said that many survivors of the attacks were finding it difficult to talk and that he thought some of them would never testify about what they saw or experienced.

                      "18 young men and women have been hospitalised in mental health hospitals because they could no longer function," he said.

                      Others are reportedly suicidal. One of those working with the teams around survivors told the BBC that some had already killed themselves.

                      Much of the evidence has come from the volunteer body-collectors deployed after the attacks, and those who handled the bodies once they arrived at the Shura army base for identification.

                      One of the body-collectors volunteering with the religious organisation Zaka described to me signs of torture and mutilation which included, he said, a pregnant woman whose womb had been ripped open before she was killed, and her foetus stabbed while it was inside her.

                      The BBC has not been able to independently verify this account, and Israeli media reports have questioned some testimony from volunteers working in the traumatic aftermath of the Hamas attacks.

                      Another, Nachman Dyksztejna, provided written testimony of seeing the bodies of two women in kibbutz Be'eri with their hands and legs tied to a bed.

                      "One was sexually terrorised with a knife stuck in her vagina and all her internal organs removed," his statement says.

                      At the festival site, he says small shelters were "filled with piles of women. Their clothing was torn on the upper part, but their bottoms were completely naked. Piles and piles of women. When you took a closer look at their heads, you saw a single shot straight to the brain of each."

                      Hundreds of bodies were collected from the attack sites by volunteers.

                      Investigators admit that in those first chaotic days after the attacks, with some areas still active combat zones, opportunities to carefully document the crime scenes, or take forensic evidence, were limited or missed.

                      "For the first five days, we still had terrorists on the ground in Israel," May Golan said. "And there were hundreds, hundreds of bodies everywhere. They were burned, they were without organs, they were butchered completely."

                      "This was a mass casualty event," police spokesman Dean Elsdunne told journalists at a briefing.

                      "The first thing was to work on identifying the victims, not necessarily on crime scene investigation. People were waiting to hear what happened to their loved ones."

                      It was staff at the army's Shura base, where bodies arrived for identification, who have provided investigators with some of the most crucial evidence.

                      This evidence emerged from a makeshift hub of tents and refrigerated shipping containers set up at the base to identify the bodies.

                      When we visited, hospital trolleys, their iron skeletons topped with khaki stretchers, stood neatly lined up in front of the containers that housed the dead; the white plastic overalls of those on shift translucent under the floodlights.

                      Fighter jets roared overhead, drowning out the cicadas, as Israel's bombardment of Gaza continued.

                      Teams here told us they'd seen clear evidence of rape and sexual violence on the bodies coming in, including broken pelvises from sustained violent abuse.

                      "We see women of all ages," one of the reservists on the forensic team, Captain Maayan, told the BBC. "We see rape victims. We see women who have been through violation. We have pathologists and we see the bruises, we learn about the cuts and tears, and we know they have been sexually abused."

                      I ask her what proportion of the bodies she's handled show signs of this.

                      "Abundant," she said. "Abundant amount of women and girls of all ages."

                      The number of victims is hard to define, partly because of the state of the bodies.

                      "It's definitely multiple," said another serving soldier who asked use to use only her first name, Avigayil. "It's hard to tell. I've dealt with more than a few burned bodies and I have no idea what they went through beforehand. And bodies that are missing the bottom half - I also don't know if they were raped. But women that were clearly raped? There are enough. More than enough."

                      "Sometimes we are left only with a very small part of the body," Dr Elkayam-Levy tells me. "Maybe it's a finger, a foot or a hand that they're trying to identify. People were burned to ashes. Nothing was left. […] I want to say that we'll never know how many cases there were.
                      "
                      Privately some of those working on this talk in terms of "dozens" of victims but quickly caution that evidence is still being gathered and pieced together.

                      The civil commission headed by Dr Elkayam-Levy, to collect testimony on sexual crimes, is calling for international recognition that what happened on 7 October was systematic abuse, constituting Crimes Against Humanity.

                      "We see definite patterns," she told me. "So it wasn't incidental, it wasn't random. They came with a clear order. It was […] rape as genocide."

                      Avigayil agrees there were similarities in the violence visited on the bodies that arrived at the Shura base.

                      "There are patterns in that groups of women from the same place were treated in a similar manner," she said.
                      "There might be a set of women who were raped in one way, and we're seeing similarities in the bodies; and then a different set that were not raped but shot multiple times in the exact same pattern. So it seems that different groups of terrorists had different forms of cruelty."

                      "This was a premeditative, systematic event," police chief Yaacov Shabtai told journalists.

                      David Katz from Israel's cyber crime unit which is involved in the investigation, told journalists that it was too early to prove that sexual violence was planned as part of the attack, but that data extracted from the phones of the Hamas attackers suggested that "everything was systematic".

                      "It would be reckless to say we can already prove it […] but everything that was one there was done systematically," he said. "Nothing happened by coincidence. Rape was systematic."

                      Israel's government points to documents it says were found on Hamas fighters that appear to support the idea that sexual violence was planned. It's released clips of interrogations with some captured fighters in which they appear to say that women were targeted for this purpose.

                      Last week, UN Women put out a statement saying it "unequivocally condemn[ed] the brutal attacks by Hamas" and was "alarmed by the numerous accounts of gender-based atrocities and sexual violence during those attacks".

                      Dr Elkayam-Levy said before the statement that international women's rights organisations had taken far too long to respond to her call for support.
                      "This is the most documented atrocity humanity has known," she told me.

                      "Israel on 7 October is not the same country that woke up the following morning," said police chief Yaacov Shabtai.

                      Amid the horror of what happened to women here, Captain Maayan from the Shura identification unit says the hardest moments are when she sees "the mascara on their eyelashes, or the earrings they put on that morning".

                      I ask where that lands in her, as a woman.
                      "Terror," she replied. "It terrorises us."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                        Quite a long article from the BBC. After reading it, and not assuming everything is 100% provable but that a great majority is, I see no way Israel can ever let up on Hamas until they are eliminated. The crimes committed on individuals by Hamas fighters rivals, and may surpass, what the Nazis did. This will join the Holocaust in being remembered over the ages.
                        It's already forgotten because the Israelis allow it to be forgotten. Has any individual been identified for war crime prosecution? Are the Israelis keep rallying this point - no more rapes will ever be allowed? Instead, we get a steady stream of 13,000 dead Palestinian women and babies. The Israelis are doing a damned piss poor job portraying themselves as the victims of this war.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          It's already forgotten because the Israelis allow it to be forgotten. Has any individual been identified for war crime prosecution? Are the Israelis keep rallying this point - no more rapes will ever be allowed? Instead, we get a steady stream of 13,000 dead Palestinian women and babies. The Israelis are doing a damned piss poor job portraying themselves as the victims of this war.
                          Be fair, how was that ever going to happen? You have the armed group responsible for those atrocities living hand in glove amongst the civilian population of Gaza and no one else on the planet with a single suggestion as to how they we're supposed to get to or punish Hamas without harming civilians in the process. The only way they could ever be seen as the victims would be for them not to respond and just sit there wringing their hands and crying. Can you imagine what would happen if a terrorist group committed similar atrocities in Canada and the Canadian Government chose that option? The only difference would be that in Canada's case if such an atrocity occurred other western nations would rally round and offer military assistance. No-one was ever going to offer to go into Gaza with or instead of the Israelis.

                          As I've noted before the entire Israel/Palestine situation is completely f'ed. A situation is that is largely of their own making, There is no good solution to any of it for anyone.
                          Last edited by Monash; 06 Dec 23,, 07:35.
                          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                            Be fair, how was that ever going to happen?
                            The same way we went in to Afghanistan after 11 Sept. We kept reminding the world that we were the ones who suffered the attack. We were the dominant power. We gave their civilians the best protection we could but we made sure everyone knew that we have chosen our civilians over everybody else. Sucks to be civies behind Taliban lines but we were in it for our people, not theirs.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              The same way we went in to Afghanistan after 11 Sept. We kept reminding the world that we were the ones who suffered the attack. We were the dominant power. We gave their civilians the best protection we could but we made sure everyone knew that we have chosen our civilians over everybody else. Sucks to be civies behind Taliban lines but we were in it for our people, not theirs.
                              They're trying but the twin towers happened live on television screens across the globe. There was no denying the reality of their fall. The mass kidnappings rapes and murders in Israel didn't. And as a result Hamas can blatantly deny they ever happened! You could argue it would have been better for Israel if they had appeared live on TV. (And isn't that a fucked up statement to have to make.)
                              Last edited by Monash; 06 Dec 23,, 09:22.
                              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                They're trying but the twin towers happened live on television screens across the globe. There was no denying the reality of their fall. The mass kidnappings rapes and murders in Israel didn't. And as a result Hamas can blatantly deny they ever happened!
                                You don't have to show the acts. Just the bodies lined up at the morgue is enough.

                                Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                You could argue it would have been better for Israel if they had appeared live on TV. (And isn't that a fucked up statement to have to make.)
                                HAMAS has the footage all right. Too many eye witness accounts about phones out during such parades of near dead naked bodies. The Israelis may not be sharing the vids but HAMAS certainly is.

                                Chimo

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