Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2023 Israeli-Gazan War

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
    Great questions indeed. Why was there no flag waving when 100 K Armenians left Kharabakh with basically only their clothes on. Also, didn't see any Tigray flag when 500 K Tigray people got slaughtered in 2022. Also didn't see any solidarity marches in 2009 when Sri Lanka ended LTTE insurgency by killing everyone including civilians in the enemy zone. Also don't remember any protest marches in 1994 when 900K Tutsis got killed. I remember that clearly as I had to use a piece of paper to work out the math for how many died per day and per minute, it was 7 people killed per minute for every minute over 90 days.

    But why only Palestinians are treated special or is it that alleged perpetrators are special, maybe it is just the good old Jews being the punching bag of history. As they say history repeats itself, except that it is now hate directed against a Jewish nation state.
    The exact same point you make holds true for the horrified reaction all over the Western world to 1300 dead Israelis. My nation lit up buildings in blue & white and a long line of politicians issued grave statements. There has not been an equivalent response to the vastly higher Palesrinean death toll. People pick & choose their issues for a variety of reasons that usually make sense when you examine them. We all know that if it was anything other than Jews being killed or doing the killing no one would have a fuck to give, but it isn't just as simple as people singling out Jews for criticism (though sometimes it is). Happy to make a lengthy post going into it all in detail if you are interested enough to read it.

    The TL/DR is that none of us have enough consistency in what we care about to assume the moral high ground about others being inconsistent. It is an easy debating tactic, but it rarely holds up if we are all being honest with ourselves. As a few folk here can tell you I was deeply impacted by the Tigray War (to the point of tears at times) due to personal connections, but I didn't honestly expect many neutrals to care or possibly even know. Provided no one insists I MUST have an committed position on this conflict (that agrees with their own of course) I'm generally happy to leave them to it.
    sigpic

    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Monash View Post

      Simple. No cameras producing daily 'real time' feeds with close ups of the victims for the media to rebroadcast in graphic detail.
      Its more like a loop.

      The media are covering it because there is already an interested audience. Media organizations have never had more information about what their audiences do & don't have an interest in - their income depends on it. The footage then feeds back into people's passionate opinions on the topic, but the opinions generally preceded the coverage or it wouldn't be happening. Comparable events elsewhere just don't have the audience interest, so it isn't worth committing the resources.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

      Comment


      • I am old enough to remember the build up to 1967 war and the war itself...pretty much the first live on TV war besides Vietnam. Israel had strong support here in the US. It got even wider and harder with the terror attacks of the late 60s & 70s...especially the Munich 72 Olympics. Then to see Israel get sneak attacked in 73 (Ignore Israel's sneak attack in 67) garnered STRONG support for Israel here.

        What allowed the attitudes change some towards the Arab nations were 2 things...the Camp David Accords & the fall of the Soviet Union. You now gad good and bad Arab states in the eyes of the West...and the Palestinian leadership aligned with the bad Arab states. This only hardened with the 1990-91 Gulf War. NATO saving Muslims in the Balkans built some good will for the West by the good Arabs. Then 9/11 threw everything back into the ringer...you were either with or against us (the US being the West and the good Arabs).

        Attitudes about Israel won't change until all memory of the The Holocaust fade...and that is decade down the road.

        All of this is an extremely & very basic synthesis of the issues in the area. Not expecting any changes anytime soon.
        Last edited by Albany Rifles; 15 Nov 23,, 17:26.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          I am old enough to remember the build up to 1967 war and the war itself...pretty much the first live on TV war besides Vietnam. Israel had strong support here in the US. It got even wider and harder with the terror attacks of the late 60s & 70s...especially the Munich 72 Olympics. Then to see Israel get sneak attacked in 73 (Ignore Israel's sneak attack in 67) garnered STRONG support for Israel here.

          What allowed the attitudes change some towards the Arab nations were 2 things...the Camp David Accords & the fall of the Soviet Union. You now gad good and bad Arab states in the eyes of the West...and the Palestinian leadership aligned with the bad Arab states. This only hardened with the 1990-91 Gulf War. NATO saving Muslims in the Balkans built some good will for the West by the good Arabs. Then 9/11 threw everything back into the ringer...you were either with or against us (the US being the West and the good Arabs).

          Attitudes about Israel won't change until all memory of the The Holocaust fade...and that is decade down the road.

          All of this is an extremely & very basic synthesis of the issues in the area. Not expecting any changes anytime soon.
          I recall all of that too being a tad older than you.

          As far as anything changing? No, as the Israelis are still fighting for their existence, in their eyes, and nothing can top that.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

            Its more like a loop.

            The media are covering it because there is already an interested audience. Media organizations have never had more information about what their audiences do & don't have an interest in - their income depends on it. The footage then feeds back into people's passionate opinions on the topic, but the opinions generally preceded the coverage or it wouldn't be happening. Comparable events elsewhere just don't have the audience interest, so it isn't worth committing the resources.
            That's the consequence of my point, a feedback loop. Video of the violence leads a to negative reaction which leads to more video, then more reaction etc etc. And on each cycle the strength of the reactions, including protests tends to build. Also as I mentioned earlier in a previous post you have an obvious power imbalance between the two sides.

            In a ghastly way it would probably be better for Israel in terms of generating international support if Hamas was also still butchering Israeli civilians in large numbers and video of that was showing up on the news every night. Which of course is just another example of just how badly f****d up the entire situation is.
            Last edited by Monash; 16 Nov 23,, 22:35.
            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

            Comment


            • Hamas Agrees to Deal to Free Dozens of Hostages

              “Hamas has agreed in principle and Israel is now considering a proposal for the release of at least 50 women and children among about 240 foreign and Israeli hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza,” the Washington Post reports.

              “In exchange for the hostages, Israel would agree to a three-to-five-day pause ‘in place’ in the fighting, increased humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the release of an unspecified number of women and children held in Israeli prisons.”
              _________
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                Hamas Agrees to Deal to Free Dozens of Hostages

                “Hamas has agreed in principle and Israel is now considering a proposal for the release of at least 50 women and children among about 240 foreign and Israeli hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza,” the Washington Post reports.

                “In exchange for the hostages, Israel would agree to a three-to-five-day pause ‘in place’ in the fighting, increased humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the release of an unspecified number of women and children held in Israeli prisons.”
                _________
                Best news in more then a month!!!
                That said it still leaves ore than 150 hostages unaccounted for, maybe "proof-of-life" could be obtained???
                When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Amled View Post

                  Best news in more then a month!!!
                  That said it still leaves ore than 150 hostages unaccounted for, maybe "proof-of-life" could be obtained???
                  One major problem (if media reports are to be believed) is that Hamas does or at least did not hold all of the captives prior to Israel's assault commencing. I'm sure it's done its best to 'persuade' Islamic Jihad and any 'free market' hostage takers in Gaza to hand surviving prisoners over but there's no guarantee they've been completely successful. And even if or when they were? There's no guarantee what state the hostages would be in by the time they got their hands on them.
                  Last edited by Monash; 16 Nov 23,, 04:24.
                  If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

                    I suspect that at some point in the next 10 years there will be some manner of agreement that will give Palestineans a weak state dependent on its Arab 'friends' (though I have made similar predictions multiple times in the past & been wrong). That agreement will be significantly less than the Palestineans could have got in previous decades, but the issue will then go away in most meaningful ways. A few folk will continue to blame Israel for....whatever.....but Arabs shitting on other Arabs isn't newsworthy. What you seem to think is some great shift is just part of the back and forth of the tide of opinion. Israel will be just fine and such compromises as it makes will be weak compared to what once seemed inevitable.
                    I wouldn't call it a great shift, but it is a significant change of public opinion compared to the early 2000s. Perhaps it is a reversal of the norm in earlier times when Israel faced significantly more pressure.

                    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...aign=river&utm

                    Regarding, what practical impact it would have on US foreign policy, I agree it would be modest in the near term.

                    Of the peace process, I don't think that Israel can make the conflict go away by forcing the 'Bantustan' option on the Palestinians, which is basically the status quo, where they retain full control over Area C which is 60% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians have to make do with limited self-rule over isolated enclaves. I am not sure though what is an option between this and the offers made in the early 2000s, where the Palestinians at least had contiguity in the areas under their control if not full sovereignty.
                    Last edited by InExile; 16 Nov 23,, 04:10.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                      ...But why only Palestinians are treated special or is it that alleged perpetrators are special, maybe it is just the good old Jews being the punching bag of history. As they say history repeats itself, except that it is now hate directed against a Jewish nation state.


                      Your thoughts echo some that I’ve had. How criticism of the Gazan/Israeli War has taken a growing Anti-Semitism slant!
                      Then to come across a speech like the link:


                      WOW!!!

                      Even to someone non-Jewish it was powerful.
                      This especially considering the source! A leftwing, semi-pacifist environmentalist!
                      Not my usual cup of tea; but wow!
                      My only regret is that my German is too inadequate to hear it!

                      https://www.dw.com/en/german-vice-ch...video-67290547
                      German Vice-Chancellor speaks out on anti-Semitic incidents


                      When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by InExile View Post

                        I wouldn't call it a great shift, but it is a significant change of public opinion compared to the early 2000s. Perhaps it is a reversal of the norm in earlier times when Israel faced significantly more pressure.

                        https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...aign=river&utm

                        Regarding, what practical impact it would have on US foreign policy, I agree it would be modest in the near term.

                        Of the peace process, I don't think that Israel can make the conflict go away by forcing the 'Bantustan' option on the Palestinians, which is basically the status quo, where they retain full control over Area C which is 60% of the West Bank, while the Palestinians have to make do with limited self-rule over isolated enclaves. I am not sure though what is an option between this and the offers made in the early 2000s, where the Palestinians at least had contiguity in the areas under their control if not full sovereignty.
                        Israel isn't going to permit a state that might pose a threat, even of the non-existential kind Hamas has just carried out, and no one is going to be in a position to force it to. Whatever emerges will be demilitarized & closely monitored. Maybe not a 'bantustan', but nowhere near as independent as any other nation that borders Israel. Politically it will be VERY difficult to remove existing Israeli settelments. More layers of complexity.

                        The big question here is where the Saudis land. Apparently the older generation led by the King - the ones who were around when the Saudis sent forces against Israel in '67 & '73 - are still pro-Palestinean, while MBS & his generation see them as not worth the trouble. If the King's view prevails this may prove more difficult to resolve because the Saudis will be more likely to back a deal Israel won't accept. If MBS wins out the Saudis might be prepared to bankroll a 'bantustan +' version of Palestine just to make the issue go away so they can get back to the real enemy - Iran.

                        It will be interesting to see what Israel does with Gaza. How much more will it occupy? How long will it stay? How will it secure that border? Who and what replaces Netanyahu and when? All of that will impact where we go from here. Biden wants to push for a two state solution, at least in part to defuse dometic repercussions, but that won't get settled before the 2024 election.
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                        Comment


                        • https://apnews.com/article/israel-ho...a0baf7c7c34b09

                          Yemen’s Houthi rebels hijack an Israeli-linked ship in the Red Sea and take 25 crew members hostage

                          JERUSALEM (AP) — Yemen’s Houthi rebels seized an Israeli-linked cargo ship in a crucial Red Sea shipping route on Sunday, officials said, taking over two dozen crew members hostage and raising fears that regional tensions heightened over the Israel-Hamas war were playing out on a new maritime front.

                          The Iran-backed Houthi rebels said they hijacked the ship over its connection to Israel and took the crew as hostages. The group warned that it would continue to target ships in international waters that were linked to or owned by Israelis until the end of Israel’s campaign against Gaza’s Hamas rulers.

                          “All ships belonging to the Israeli enemy or that deal with it will become legitimate targets,” the Houthis said.

                          Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office had blamed the Houthis for the attack on the Bahamas-flagged Galaxy Leader, a vehicle carrier affiliated with an Israeli billionaire. It said the 25 crew members had a range of nationalities, including Bulgarian, Filipino, Mexican and Ukrainian, but that no Israelis had been on board.
                          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                          Comment


                          • Have to wonder what the Houthis are thinking. The ship, itself, is owned by the Unger family in Israel. They own somewhere around 60+ car carriers. The ship is registered in the Isle of Mann and flies the Bahamian flag. Operator is Japanese owned firm. See how convoluted merchant shipping can be. The carrier was empty of it's normal load which is...cars. The ship was in route from Turkey to India where it most likely was going to pick up... cars.

                            The Ungar family is not interested in the varied crew. They might like their ship back but will write it off if needed. The Bahamian Navy isn't coming to the rescue and neither the US Navy. Are the Houthis going into hostage negotiations with the Philippines, Ukraine, Bulgaria, and Mexico? Mexican crew is a new one. The only sure result out of this will be increased insurance costs going forward but as to the Israel-Gaza geopolitical context...???

                            Seems ship hijacking has moved on from fast little boats by the Somalis to helos by the Houthis. Gee, who must be supplying those helos and the training.

                            Comment


                            • Israeli army displays tunnel beneath Al Shifa it says served as Hamas hideout



                              GAZA (Reuters) - The Israeli army showed a reinforced tunnel beside Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza on Wednesday, complete with a bathroom, kitchen and an air conditioned meeting room that it said had served as a command post for Hamas fighters.

                              The tunnel shaft, some two meters (6-1/2 feet) high, was accessed through an outdoor shaft in the hospital complex grounds, which were once crowded with tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians the army said had served as a human shield from war.

                              "That's the way that they survive because they use the hospital as a human shield that protects them," said Colonel Elad Tsuri, commander of an Israeli armoured brigade that found the tunnel. "And here they can stay for a long time. There is a room with air conditioning inside."

                              Israel has long accused Hamas of using the Shifa hospital complex as a command and control center as part of a wider strategy that seeks to hide its forces among the civilian population.

                              Hamas and hospital officials have denied the accusation and the hospital site has been at the centre of accusations of war crimes on both sides, with Palestinians accusing Israel of targeting hospitals and Israel saying the sites were being used to shelter armed fighters.

                              Journalists were driven in Israeli military vehicles to the hospital complex in the northern Gaza Strip past a landscape of buildings destroyed or vacated during Israel's nearly seven-week-old invasion of the Palestinian enclave.

                              Graced with arches, the tunnel was a well-built structure lined with stone and concrete. Army escorts used flashlights to illuminate the way in the dark and showed a small kitchen, a bathroom equipped with a toilet and sink behind a closed door, as well as a room large enough for meetings with two metal beds.

                              "We assume that there is another way out that they prepared. It's not open yet and we are sure that there are ways to the city from here," Tsuri said. He said the army knew the tunnel led to another opening in a Gaza kindergarten.

                              Israel has faced international criticism for its Gaza campaign, including its attacks on Shifa, the enclave's largest hospital. Medical officials say Israel has killed around 13,000 people in the strip since Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel in which Israel says 1,200 people were killed and 240 taken hostage.

                              Outside on the ground, the army showed scores of guns, grenades and other explosives that military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said had been collected in recent days inside the hospital, a motor home and nearby cars.

                              He said the body of one hostage, Noa Marciano, 19, had been recovered by the army outside a nearby medical clinic. Hamas earlier released a video saying she had died in an Israeli air strike. It was impossible to verify the claim.

                              In Washington, the White House has said its independent intelligence supported Israel's claim that Hamas was using Gaza's hospitals, including Shifa, to hide command posts.

                              Hamas responded at the time: "The White House and the Pentagon's adoption of the false (Israeli) narrative, claiming that the resistance is using Al Shifa medical complex for military purposes, was a green light for the occupation (Israel) to commit more massacres against civilians."

                              But Hagari, referring to Hamas' use of a hideout beneath the hospital, said: "The world now should say what happened in Shifa, what happened in the hospitals, is a war crime."
                              __________
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Hamas responded at the time: "The White House and the Pentagon's adoption of the false (Israeli) narrative, claiming that the resistance is using Al Shifa medical complex for military purposes, was a green light for the occupation (Israel) to commit more massacres against civilians."
                                So, what the hell is this then? A man cave?

                                You know what bugs me more than HAMAS and their believers lying? It's the doctors, including a few Medicine Sans Frontiers, kept saying there is no HAMAS activity near the hospital.
                                Chimo

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X