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2023 Israeli-Gazan War

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  • Has anyone else been taken back by the amount of anti-Israeli sentiment coming from inside our own countries? I’m no fan of the hard right extremist Israeli governments of the recent past, settlement building in the West Bank etc. but there’s a short memory of a few weeks being displayed to remember how this started again.

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    • Originally posted by statquo View Post
      Has anyone else been taken back by the amount of anti-Israeli sentiment coming from inside our own countries? I’m no fan of the hard right extremist Israeli governments of the recent past, settlement building in the West Bank etc. but there’s a short memory of a few weeks being displayed to remember how this started again.
      Obviously I'm not in the US but I don't find it surprising. There's simply too much confronting video of civilian casualties (especially children) coming out of Gaza. Given the intensity of Israel's bombardment and the strips population density that's not surprising in a military sense but it's still confronting for viewers who haven't seen anywhere near this level of fighting and intensive bombardment in Gaza for decades. Add in the fact there's no stream of countervailing video from Hamas's raid into Israel? It tends to make the suffering almost look one sided, which if the fighting continues long enough (as seems likely) it almost will be once the final shot is fired and the body count for both sides is in. Whats the guessing 10-20 dead Palestinians for every Israeli?
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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      • Originally posted by Monash View Post

        Obviously I'm not in the US but I don't find it surprising. There's simply too much confronting video of civilian casualties (especially children) coming out of Gaza. Given the intensity of Israel's bombardment and the strips population density that's not surprising in a military sense but it's still confronting for viewers who haven't seen anywhere near this level of fighting and intensive bombardment in Gaza for decades. Add in the fact there's no stream of countervailing video from Hamas's raid into Israel? It tends to make the suffering almost look one sided, which if the fighting continues long enough (as seems likely) it almost will be once the final shot is fired and the body count for both sides is in. Whats the guessing 10-20 dead Palestinians for every Israeli?
        That's sorta been Israel's goal in all its wars.
        Last edited by Albany Rifles; 30 Oct 23,, 22:49.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

          That's sorta been Israel's on all its wars.
          Not so much the early ones, back in the days when the military balance of power wasn't so firmly skewed in Israel's favor. They were the underdogs then.
          Last edited by Monash; 31 Oct 23,, 05:23.
          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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          • Originally posted by Monash View Post

            Not so much the early ones back int he day when the military balance of power wasn't stacked so firmly in their favor. They were the underdogs then.
            True,,,but in 1973 the amount of casualties the Israeli defense forces were mind boggling, especially against Syrian army units on the Golan Heights
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • Originally posted by statquo View Post
              Has anyone else been taken back by the amount of anti-Israeli sentiment coming from inside our own countries? I’m no fan of the hard right extremist Israeli governments of the recent past, settlement building in the West Bank etc. but there’s a short memory of a few weeks being displayed to remember how this started again.
              I am one of those feeling less sympathetic to Israel as this goes on. Granted, that the blame for starting the current war goes entirely on Hamas. The attacks on innocent civilians and children was barbaric and irremediably evil, evoking images of the early days of the Holocaust, where SS troops and local anti-semites in Eastern Europe went on killing sprees and indiscriminately shot men, women and children.

              Nevertheless, it is also true that Israeli policy towards the Palestinians the past 15 years has been terribly selfish, seeking to marginalize them, take more and more land so that the two state solution becomes far less viable. Defenders of Israel do point out that Israel does not directly target civilians; granted that heavy population density of Gaza makes precision bombing difficult. Nevertheless, these arguments do seem to wear thin when looking at the damage in Gaza which to an extent looks indiscrimate. It reminds one of Russian attacks in Syria and even Ukraine where civilian infrastructure was deliberately attacked to terrorize the civilian population. This combined with the seige, cutting off food, fuel and even restricting water supplies makes it look like Israeli tactics are little different than that of the Russians which many posters on this forum have rightly deplored.

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              • Nevertheless, these arguments do seem to wear thin when looking at the damage in Gaza which to an extent looks indiscrimate. It reminds one of Russian attacks in Syria and even Ukraine where civilian infrastructure was deliberately attacked to terrorize the civilian population. This combined with the seige, cutting off food, fuel and even restricting water supplies makes it look like Israeli tactics are little different than that of the Russians which many posters on this forum have rightly deplored.
                of course, Hamas deliberately designs its defenses alongside civilian infrastructure, thus using civilians as human shields.

                there is simply no viable way to defeat Hamas without significant collateral damage.

                having said that, I doubt the Israelis are in the mood right now to try very hard to limit that collateral damage either.

                the tragedy of the clown show that is the Israeli government is that Netanyahu and his even more scumbag ministers are pretty much talking about turning Gaza into a parking lot, which in turn plays right into the hands of the Hamas propaganda machine....and with the Israeli unity government, just serves to paint the Israeli opposition with the same brush.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                • Originally posted by astralis View Post

                  of course, Hamas deliberately designs its defenses alongside civilian infrastructure, thus using civilians as human shields.

                  there is simply no viable way to defeat Hamas without significant collateral damage.

                  having said that, I doubt the Israelis are in the mood right now to try very hard to limit that collateral damage either.

                  the tragedy of the clown show that is the Israeli government is that Netanyahu and his even more scumbag ministers are pretty much talking about turning Gaza into a parking lot, which in turn plays right into the hands of the Hamas propaganda machine....and with the Israeli unity government, just serves to paint the Israeli opposition with the same brush.
                  Which has sort of my point from the beginning. In terms of the general welfare of most civilians living in Israel/Palestine? As time has gone by it's become harder to tell one side from the other. Hence circuses/monkeys ....
                  Last edited by Monash; 01 Nov 23,, 06:25.
                  If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                  Comment


                  • There’s a case to be made for Israel; teeth-gnashing, foaming at the mouth with a lot of hair tearing, accepting the fact of a cease-fire.
                    Hell, even allowing humanitarian aid convoys in through the Rafah Crossing!
                    With the caveat that all it would take would be a bit “Quid pro quo” from Gaza’s side!
                    If Israel announces their willingness to a cease fire, and to allow aid convoys
                    …if Gaza would release all the hostages, those alive, as well as the bodies of those reported killed”!
                    The onus of responsibility for any further conflict would then be on Gaza!
                    Not much chance, I know!!!
                    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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                    • Originally posted by Amled View Post
                      There’s a case to be made for Israel; teeth-gnashing, foaming at the mouth with a lot of hair tearing, accepting the fact of a cease-fire.
                      Hell, even allowing humanitarian aid convoys in through the Rafah Crossing!
                      With the caveat that all it would take would be a bit “Quid pro quo” from Gaza’s side!
                      If Israel announces their willingness to a cease fire, and to allow aid convoys
                      …if Gaza would release all the hostages, those alive, as well as the bodies of those reported killed”!
                      The onus of responsibility for any further conflict would then be on Gaza!
                      Not much chance, I know!!!
                      Wrong government to do that.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                        Wrong government to do that.
                        …and then again!!!
                        It’s also rumored that geneticists are working on making pigs that fly!

                        https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/03/...proves-militar
                        Netanyahu rejects calls for ceasefire until Israeli hostages are released by Hamas
                        When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Monash View Post

                          Obviously I'm not in the US but I don't find it surprising. There's simply too much confronting video of civilian casualties (especially children) coming out of Gaza. Given the intensity of Israel's bombardment and the strips population density that's not surprising in a military sense but it's still confronting for viewers who haven't seen anywhere near this level of fighting and intensive bombardment in Gaza for decades. Add in the fact there's no stream of countervailing video from Hamas's raid into Israel? It tends to make the suffering almost look one sided, which if the fighting continues long enough (as seems likely) it almost will be once the final shot is fired and the body count for both sides is in. Whats the guessing 10-20 dead Palestinians for every Israeli?
                          But it’s not even that. What are the college kids protesting Israel about? Palestine wasn’t colonized by the Israelis. The UN voted on creating the state of Israel. Most take issue with the Israelis colonizing the West Bank, but are Hamas the liberators you want to cheer for if you’re a liberal college student? What bastion of liberalism exists in Gaza? It’s the complete opposite!

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                          • Originally posted by statquo View Post

                            But it’s not even that. What are the college kids protesting Israel about? Palestine wasn’t colonized by the Israelis. The UN voted on creating the state of Israel. Most take issue with the Israelis colonizing the West Bank, but are Hamas the liberators you want to cheer for if you’re a liberal college student? What bastion of liberalism exists in Gaza? It’s the complete opposite!
                            As I said most of them are protesting the violent images they see on TV and no-one sees or rather saw similar images from Hamas initial attack on Israel. In some ways the fact those images weren't broadcast is almost a pity because while they would have been horrendously graphic they might have added some 'context' to the scale of Israel's response. A proportion of non-Palestinian western protesters were and always probably will be pro-Palestinian activists ready to engage in protests and condemn any actions taken by Israel while glossing over violence by Palestinians as merely a reaction to oppression. In part they have a point, in part.

                            However IMO most of the rest however probably wouldn't even be seen protesting in public if this latest round of fighting hadn't broken out, even though they would still probably identify themselves as pro-Palestiian in a survey. Others will just be the usual anti-capitalist/anti-war protesters you see in almost any protest. You know the 'civil rights for gay whales' crowd. The rest? Just ordinary people appalled by what they see and who can blame them. What I do find interesting are the interviews I have seen on TV where people acknowledge Israel's right to defend itself from attack but at the same time criticize it for killing civilians. One question. How's that supposed to work in Gaza? None of them ever suggest a solution.

                            In short people are reacting emotionally to a terrible situation they see on TV every night. Facts like the UN resolution supporting the establishment of the state of Israel aren't seen as pertinent - unless your a diplomat or international politics guru.
                            Last edited by Monash; 05 Nov 23,, 01:33.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by statquo View Post
                              But it’s not even that. What are the college kids protesting Israel about? Palestine wasn’t colonized by the Israelis. The UN voted on creating the state of Israel. Most take issue with the Israelis colonizing the West Bank, but are Hamas the liberators you want to cheer for if you’re a liberal college student? What bastion of liberalism exists in Gaza? It’s the complete opposite!
                              So what else is new? Hanoi Jane. Look her up.

                              US big bad. Anything pro-US is also big bad. I remember mass protests across NATO for unilateral disarmament even the Soviets out-number us by at least 10,000 nukes. and 100 divisions.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 05 Nov 23,, 00:47.
                              Chimo

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                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                So what else is new? Hanoi Jane. Look her up.

                                US big bad. Anything pro-US is also big bad. I remember mass protests across NATO for unilateral disarmament even the Soviets out-number us by at least 10,000 nukes. and 100 divisions.
                                Yes, That’s what I’ve been comparing it to. I’m just taken back by it still. Feels like this is more social media driven though.

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