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  • #76
    Ahh, yes, peace through destruction, a familiar story. It is no less accetable for Jews to live there and control their own destiny than it is for Arabs to control Egypt's destiny. Perhaps not accetable in your world view, which is a shame.
    rofl, man, being a jew is a religion, not a nationality, Egypt is ruled by Egyptians and if we have jews living here, they will be treated just like Muslims or Christians. besides, we r not talking about Egypt here.

    The again, not even every Muslim can be president in your country, it takes a most ruthless Muslim at that.
    LOL, said by who ??, man, if really the most ruthless Muslim (True Islam) ruled Egypt, then Egypt would have been better in all ways than now, and in contrary to what ur head have been fed with, that true Muslim leader would not choose war as a first option. or tell u what, just believe what u have always believed, u look like u do not have the capacity to believe that u have been lied to before.

    Really, your country has not done much to aid the so-called Palestinians, nor to help take in any of them. Its not surprise really that Egypt did not want Gaza back, you did not want to deal with them either.
    and u just knew that we do not want to deal with them, then why are we dealing with them now ??, ghaza has been always Palestinian not Egyptian, besides enough problems we have in Egypt, do not u think ??

    Oh, sorry, we forgot to give the Israelis the memo on purposefully using their civilian population as human shield. I'm sure once they actually stop caring about the civilians who live around them, which is Hamas's attitude, then all the death counts will even out and you'll be satisfied.
    that is what israel has been saying always about civilian killings, well, what about the family that has been killed on the beach by israeli ships, what about the famus story of the israeli soldier who bashed a boy's face just like that, how about mohamed 2eldora's story, when israeli soldiers opened fire on a man with his young boy and they did not stop firing till the boy was killed between his father's hands and it was caught on tape from the beginning till the end, how about demolishing homes and collective punishing which is prohibited by international law, how about using Palestinians as a shield while in operations in occupied lands and it is also caught on tape, how about settlers who caught on tape beating up old couples just because they were looking after their sheep.

    How about Israeli soldiers and pilots who refused to serve in the army and their main reason was because they did not join the army to kill civilians.

    How about all the other things happened to Palestinians and was not caught on tape and published like israel does.

    And that is not the first time they does that, u have lebanon war 1982, u have attrition war before 1973 war, when israeli airforce bombed a small school full with children saying that they thought it was an army storage, they left all the military installations in front of them and decided to bomb something that might be a storage.

    well, there is only one explanation for most of the things above, even israel did it on purpose, or they have a very bad intelligence agency which i doubt.

    The guys make videos that say that they're doing it for a lot of reasons, but Islam first and foremost. So what's not true here?
    isn't what i already said explains it ??, oke, i will say it again, not cause the people who blew themselves off say that they do it for islam, means that islam says so, islam prohibits killing urself or innocent people, this is a golden rule in Islam, anyone says something else, do not believe him, did i made it easier for u to understand ?

    So you are saying that are not true Muslims. Shouldn't you be fighting these people then, since you know they are disgracing your religion by saying that they do these terrorist attacks in the name of Islam?
    Man, We are already fighting those on the religious level to stop people blowing themselves up in israel or iraq or any other place. there are many sites dedicated for that, there r many tv commercials trying to do that.

    let me tell u something, if u got a poor teenager without a family or troubled with all the things going around him, then u brainwashed him convincing him to blow himself up killing innocent people, then u just got ur first human bomb, and finding such kind of teenagers is pretty easy in Palestine these days, cause all of the teenagers were born under israeli occupation and they blame israel for all what happened and is happening to them, and u can not blame them, blame the ones who brainwashed them and blame Israel who neglected Palestinian civilians, let me tell u something, do u think home demolishing will stop the bombing ?? , not at all, it will just increase the hatred and will lead to new ppl blowing themselves up.

    Gotcha, so any time anyone is being mistreated it is not true Islam, therefore the association can't be made. So let's get this straight here. When everything is done right, Islam is the cause. When something is done wrong, Islam has nothing to do with it. That's pretty cute
    Yup u r right in this one, except that Islam tells u what is right and what is wrong, but u r the one who choose to do right or wrong, so at the end, doing the right thing does not mean that Islam is the cause, but means u have did the right thing which is the Islam has said before, or u chose not do the right thing which also does not mean that Islam is the cause.

    I looked it up, and so did another guy, named Andrew Bostom.

    Amazon.com: The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History: Ibn Warraq, Andrew G. Bostom: Books
    lol, u know i won't even try to read it, u know why, simply because i have read about this matter before and got the information verified by an American rabbi, unless this book is talking about the late rulers, cause as i said before, some late rulers tried to force jews into Islam, and as i said also before, forcing people into Islam is prohibited in Islam.

    No, actually it is not a fact at all, that's called a baseless assertion.
    so i assume that u will not accuse me of saying any crab about things that israeli did to Palestinian civilians, cause our news showed them, so based on what u have said, ur news showed them as well.

    Please this time, try to really replay, enough with the sarcasm

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by heso10 View Post
      rofl, man, being a jew is a religion, not a nationality, Egypt is ruled by Egyptians and if we have jews living here, they will be treated just like Muslims or Christians. besides, we r not talking about Egypt here.

      Being a follower of Judaism is a religion, being a Jew is an ethnicity. This has been verified time and again through genetic research.

      LOL, said by who ??, man, if really the most ruthless Muslim (True Islam) ruled Egypt, then Egypt would have been better in all ways than now, and in contrary to what ur head have been fed with, that true Muslim leader would not choose war as a first option. or tell u what, just believe what u have always believed, u look like u do not have the capacity to believe that u have been lied to before.

      I said that it takes A most ruthless Muslim, not THE most ruthless Muslim. You do no read very carefully. You also don't pay attention to the political suppression in your own country, apparently.

      and u just knew that we do not want to deal with them, then why are we dealing with them now ??, ghaza has been always Palestinian not Egyptian, besides enough problems we have in Egypt, do not u think ??

      So from 1948 to 1967 Egypt did not hold Gaza? Ok, any more fairly tales that you want to tell me, Peter Pan?

      that is what israel has been saying always about civilian killings, well, what about the family that has been killed on the beach by israeli ships, what about the famus story of the israeli soldier who bashed a boy's face just like that, how about mohamed 2eldora's story, when israeli soldiers opened fire on a man with his young boy and they did not stop firing till the boy was killed between his father's hands and it was caught on tape from the beginning till the end, how about demolishing homes and collective punishing which is prohibited by international law, how about using Palestinians as a shield while in operations in occupied lands and it is also caught on tape, how about settlers who caught on tape beating up old couples just because they were looking after their sheep.

      Stop ranting and show what you are talking about. Although if you are referring to Mohammed al-Durrah, there is no proof who he was shot by because he was buried without being allowed to get the bullets out of him and do a proper autopsy.
      How about Israeli soldiers and pilots who refused to serve in the army and their main reason was because they did not join the army to kill civilians.

      They mentioned nothing of killing civilians in their refusal to serve.

      How about all the other things happened to Palestinians and was not caught on tape and published like israel does.

      And that is not the first time they does that, u have lebanon war 1982, u have attrition war before 1973 war, when israeli airforce bombed a small school full with children saying that they thought it was an army storage, they left all the military installations in front of them and decided to bomb something that might be a storage.

      As oppossed to the Arab armies, who instead of trying to bomb military targets and accidentally missing, bomb civilian targets on purpose.

      well, there is only one explanation for most of the things above, even israel did it on purpose, or they have a very bad intelligence agency which i doubt.



      isn't what i already said explains it ??, oke, i will say it again, not cause the people who blew themselves off say that they do it for islam, means that islam says so, islam prohibits killing urself or innocent people, this is a golden rule in Islam, anyone says something else, do not believe him, did i made it easier for u to understand ?

      Nice copout, they're not true Muslims so even if they claim that they're doing it in the name if Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam. Then why are Arabs still mad a the West about the Crusades? After all, real Christians would never kill other people.


      Man, We are already fighting those on the religious level to stop people blowing themselves up in israel or iraq or any other place. there are many sites dedicated for that, there r many tv commercials trying to do that.

      Gotcha, so you really don't care about Islam at all then do you, seeing as how you are only willing to fight those who disgrace the name of your religion with TV commercials.

      let me tell u something, if u got a poor teenager without a family or troubled with all the things going around him, then u brainwashed him convincing him to blow himself up killing innocent people, then u just got ur first human bomb,
      Most of these teenagers have families.



      Yup u r right in this one, except that Islam tells u what is right and what is wrong, but u r the one who choose to do right or wrong, so at the end, doing the right thing does not mean that Islam is the cause, but means u have did the right thing which is the Islam has said before, or u chose not do the right thing which also does not mean that Islam is the cause.



      lol, u know i won't even try to read it, u know why, simply because i have read about this matter before and got the information verified by an American rabbi, unless this book is talking about the late rulers, cause as i said before, some late rulers tried to force jews into Islam, and as i said also before, forcing people into Islam is prohibited in Islam.

      I know you won't even try to read it, that's not a surprise, it might make you rethink things and that is a troubling thought for you. Oh you got the information verified by a random rabbi, an American even, and that man obviously has to know better than a historical researcher.

      so i assume that u will not accuse me of saying any crab about things that israeli did to Palestinian civilians, cause our news showed them, so based on what u have said, ur news showed them as well.

      What you said had not point, it was just a bottomless rant.

      Please this time, try to really replay, enough with the sarcasm
      Replay?
      In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
      The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

      Comment


      • #78
        Being a follower of Judaism is a religion, being a Jew is an ethnicity. This has been verified time and again through genetic research.
        To tell u the truth, i never knew that, thanks for telling me, but that means that many people following judiasm, religiously does not have the right to live in israel as they r not really jews, i know of course they have the right to live there through immigration, i am just talking about people following judiasm who claim that being in israel is their religious right.

        here is a question, and i am not sure of its answer and that is why i am asking u, i have read many articles about this issue before, but none of them explained from where they came and how did they disappear from what is called now Palestine & Israel, i know from the part that they were living in Egypt, then due to enslaving & glooming them by the pharaoh, moses took them east, then many invaders came and gloom them again until many of them have left, that is a brief on the period i read about, so my question is what happened to them before being in Egypt, and what happened to the jews who have chose to stay even after the many invades.

        Gotcha, so you really don't care about Islam at all then do you, seeing as how you are only willing to fight those who disgrace the name of your religion with TV commercials.
        huh ??, i think u misunderstood what i wrote above, well, i will say it again, by saying we fight them on the religious level, does not mean we are fighting Islam, it means we fight them with Islam, they think Islam is saying blow yourself up, and we are showing them how Islam is not saying that but actually prohibit that, and as i said there are sites and tv commercials as it is the fastest way to reach people, an example of such sites, TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION , i hope u got what i mean now.

        Most of these teenagers have families.
        In Palestine, u do not find anyone who has not lost someone dear, some people lost their parents, some lost their brother or sister, some lost their children, some are orphans and all their family are dead, their hate produced from losing their dear ones compiled with being poor compiled with someone using religion against them, u saw the result in tv.

        I said that it takes A most ruthless Muslim, not THE most ruthless Muslim. You do no read very carefully. You also don't pay attention to the political suppression in your own country, apparently.
        well, sorry if i read it wrongly, this is not my first lang. u know, i know about political suppression in my own country but u imagine if a party like 2el2e7'wan 2elmoslemen held the power in Egypt, they used to kill people before, what do u think they will do if they held the power, besides, they used to kill presidents & important political figures in USA, start wars behind the name of democracy.

        So from 1948 to 1967 Egypt did not hold Gaza? Ok, any more fairly tales that you want to tell me, Peter Pan?
        and what about before 1948 ??, remember from 1948 to 1967 we controlled it only because the deceleration of state of israel and splitting between Ghaza and the rest of Palestine, but it was gonna return to Palestinians sooner or later.

        Stop ranting and show what you are talking about. Although if you are referring to Mohammed al-Durrah, there is no proof who he was shot by because he was buried without being allowed to get the bullets out of him and do a proper autopsy.
        Do i look like i am talking about mohammed aldurrah only !!!, so if Palestinians killed Israelis then it is pretty serious, but when Israelis kill civilian Palestinians then i am ranting...

        No proof, did not u even see the video ??, is there any more prove than watching it !!!!
        i do not know about their refusal to do a proper autopsy, but it won't surprise me, cause we arabs and Muslims bury our dead who have been died on enemy hands without doing anything to them, we just bury them as they are, and in case of mohamed eldurra, israel is an enemy to him. but i will tell u this, if there were no evidence on who killed him, they would have made an autopsy, but since there was enough evidence like the video tape, then no need for autopsy, and if u think that a Palestinian killed him to make israel looks bad, do u think his father would have said it is israeli soldier instead !!! i doubt, he was a father after all, and the dead boy was his son.


        Nice copout, they're not true Muslims so even if they claim that they're doing it in the name if Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam. Then why are Arabs still mad a the West about the Crusades? After all, real Christians would never kill other people.
        yup u r right, they are not even Muslims, they think they are Muslims, they think they are doing the right thing, but it is not, we are still mad of the crusaders cause they killed so many people including Christians and jews btw, but at the same time we know that their king and highest religious authority at their time collected them from the streets, and convinced them that doing so is for Christianity.

        I know you won't even try to read it, that's not a surprise, it might make you rethink things and that is a troubling thought for you. Oh you got the information verified by a random rabbi, an American even, and that man obviously has to know better than a historical researcher.
        lol, it is not the issue at all, but when a rabbi who knows everything about everything related to jews and their history tells u that jews lived under Islamic rule in peace and they were allowed to freely practice their religion then u have to believe him (i have already knew that from Islamic history besides the fact that Islam allows practicing other religions freely under its rule, so the rabbi verified me these information), i mean who else will know better than him ?? , a writer !!, i doubt, but he told me also that just before the Islamic rule ends, there were couple of rulers who were forcing jews to follow Islam.

        well, just a small thing, a random rabbi !!, man, rabbi is the most important man among jews, let's say he is a random rabbi, u still think that a writer knows jews history better than him ??, i still doubt that.

        What you said had not point, it was just a bottomless rant.
        heh, see, u just proved that western news agencies does not show u all the news, they show only what they select for u.

        Comment


        • #79
          well, i checked what they have said about Mohammed Eldurra, although he is not the only one killed by Israel, but since u said that it may not be Israel, so i checked the internet on what both parties say.

          Palestine say there were no autopsy because they already know who killed him, they also said that Israel removed the wall that was behind them where many of the bullets rested, the father said that israeli forces was the one who killed his boy, he said he waved to them to stop shooting, but they kept shooting, the camera man, said israeli soldiers were the one who killed the boy.

          Israel say that it was not israeli bullets that killed the boy, they say it was Palestinian bullets that killed the boy, an Israeli doctor said that he treated the father before, and he was not wounded in this gunfire.

          France 2, the channel that owns the video tape, does not want to show the whole 27 mins tape, and it published about 3 minutes only.

          i would believe the father and the cameraman, or even the father only, and forget about the rest.

          May be Palestinians are lying to make Israel look bad, may be Israel and the Israeli doctor are lying to make Palestinians look bad and divert the attention on the possibility that their soldiers may have really killed the boy.

          i mean may be an Israeli soldier fired on his own without taking orders and they were trying to cover him up, may be it was Palestinian who killed the boy, but why a Palestinian will kill a Palestinian boy, and why the boy's father said that it was israeli soldiers as well as the cameraman said, and if it was Palestenians, why Israel did not report that there were any gunfires near their base and reacted upon them, as they were only firing on rioters coming from other street and those rioters were throwing rocks.

          hmm, what do u think ? <-- that is not sarcasm, i am really asking.
          Last edited by heso10; 01 Jul 08,, 00:36.

          Comment


          • #80
            They mentioned nothing of killing civilians in their refusal to serve.
            In January 2002, 51 reserve soldiers and officers signed a "Combat Troops' Letter" or "Combatants' Letter" in which they declared their refusal "to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people."
            "The pilots' letter," published on September 24, 2003, was signed by 27 reserve pilots and former pilots already exempt from reserve duty. One of the signatories was a famous former pilot Brigadier General (res.) Yiftah Spector. In their letter, the pilots stated:

            We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories. We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians. These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.[6]

            The signatories clarified that they do not reject military service in the IDF but declared:

            We ... shall continue to serve in the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force for every mission in defense of the state of Israel.
            This letter, dated December 2003, was signed by 13 reservists of Sayeret Matkal, an elite commando unit, serving in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (nine commandos in Sayeret Matkal, 2 soldiers who had been removed from reserve duty because of prior refusals to serve there, and 2 additional combatant soldiers). Their letter, addressed to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, stated:

            We shall no longer lend a hand in the occupation of the territories. We shall no longer take part in the deprivation of basic human rights from millions of Palestinians. We shall no longer serve as a shield in the crusade of the settlements. We shall no longer corrupt our moral character in missions of oppression. We shall no longer deny our responsibility as soldiers of the Israeli DEFENSE force.
            I just copy paste it from wikipedia, the sources of these things are enlisted in wikipedia as well.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by heso10 View Post
              I just copy paste it from wikipedia, the sources of these things are enlisted in wikipedia as well.
              Read it again. They said nothing about having attacked civilians, just like I said.
              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by heso10 View Post
                To tell u the truth, i never knew that, thanks for telling me, but that means that many people following judiasm, religiously does not have the right to live in israel as they r not really jews, i know of course they have the right to live there through immigration, i am just talking about people following judiasm who claim that being in israel is their religious right.

                I'm not sure what you are saying here because frankly it makes no sense.

                here is a question, and i am not sure of its answer and that is why i am asking u, i have read many articles about this issue before, but none of them explained from where they came and how did they disappear from what is called now Palestine & Israel, i know from the part that they were living in Egypt, then due to enslaving & glooming them by the pharaoh, moses took them east, then many invaders came and gloom them again until many of them have left, that is a brief on the period i read about, so my question is what happened to them before being in Egypt, and what happened to the jews who have chose to stay even after the many invades.

                What happen to Jews who stayed after which invasions? There has been a ceaseless, albeit at times small, Jewish population in the area since they first came there.

                huh ??, i think u misunderstood what i wrote above, well, i will say it again, by saying we fight them on the religious level, does not mean we are fighting Islam, it means we fight them with Islam, they think Islam is saying blow yourself up, and we are showing them how Islam is not saying that but actually prohibit that, and as i said there are sites and tv commercials as it is the fastest way to reach people, an example of such sites, TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION , i hope u got what i mean now.

                You didn't read what I said. I didn't say you should fight Islam, I said you should fight them in order to keep the name of Islam from being tarnished by folks of the terrorist ilk.


                In Palestine, u do not find anyone who has not lost someone dear, some people lost their parents, some lost their brother or sister, some lost their children, some are orphans and all their family are dead, their hate produced from losing their dear ones compiled with being poor compiled with someone using religion against them, u saw the result in tv.

                So what? Everyone in Israel knows someone's family that has been affected by a terrorist attack, many also have lost much there. That does not prove anything.

                well, sorry if i read it wrongly, this is not my first lang. u know, i know about political suppression in my own country but u imagine if a party like 2el2e7'wan 2elmoslemen held the power in Egypt, they used to kill people before, what do u think they will do if they held the power, besides, they used to kill presidents & important political figures in USA, start wars behind the name of democracy.

                2el2e7'wan 2elmoslemen? There has got to be a different spelling to that, because this one you wrote I've not read of before.

                and what about before 1948 ??, remember from 1948 to 1967 we controlled it only because the deceleration of state of israel and splitting between Ghaza and the rest of Palestine, but it was gonna return to Palestinians sooner or later.

                You have absolutely no proof of that. No one does, because it does not exist. Nothing besides propaganda statements even imply such a thing.

                Do i look like i am talking about mohammed aldurrah only !!!, so if Palestinians killed Israelis then it is pretty serious, but when Israelis kill civilian Palestinians then i am ranting...

                No proof, did not u even see the video ??, is there any more prove than watching it !!!!

                That video has been called into question many times, and unless there is an autopsy, its careless to declare who shot him.

                i do not know about their refusal to do a proper autopsy, but it won't surprise me, cause we arabs and Muslims bury our dead who have been died on enemy hands without doing anything to them, we just bury them as they are, and in case of mohamed eldurra, israel is an enemy to him.

                That's the whole point, no one knows who killed him because there was no autopsy. So he could have very well been shot by Palestinian terrorists, who are as you imply not his enemies, and therefore his body can and should be analyzed for verification, but it was not, because his death could not be used as a propaganda piece if he was shot by Arabs.

                but i will tell u this, if there were no evidence on who killed him, they would have made an autopsy, but since there was enough evidence like the video tape, then no need for autopsy, and if u think that a Palestinian killed him to make israel looks bad, do u think his father would have said it is israeli soldier instead !!! i doubt, he was a father after all, and the dead boy was his son.

                The whole point was that there was NOT enough evidence. They used him and his father as a pawn. You do not personally know the father, do you? Then how are you trying to making definite statements about a stranger's character?


                yup u r right, they are not even Muslims, they think they are Muslims, they think they are doing the right thing, but it is not, we are still mad of the crusaders cause they killed so many people including Christians and jews btw, but at the same time we know that their king and highest religious authority at their time collected them from the streets, and convinced them that doing so is for Christianity.

                So then you think the Crusades had nothing to with Christiniaty and should not be associated with the religion at all?

                lol, it is not the issue at all, but when a rabbi who knows everything about everything related to jews

                There is no one person who knows everything related to Jews. No mortal person in omniscient.

                and their history tells u that jews lived under Islamic rule in peace and they were allowed to freely practice their religion then u have to believe him

                Or it is convenient for your world view to believe him, so you choose to do so.

                i mean who else will know better than him ?? , a writer !!, i doubt,

                So... historical scholars are not as qualified on history as religious authorities? I'm pretty sure that is right along the same lines of thought as Holocaust denying mullahs in Iran who claim to know better than all the people who actually specialize in studying the subject.

                but he told me also that just before the Islamic rule ends, there were couple of rulers who were forcing jews to follow Islam.

                well, just a small thing, a random rabbi !!, man, rabbi is the most important man among jews, let's say he is a random rabbi, u still think that a writer knows jews history better than him ??, i still doubt that.

                Being a Jew does not give me a monopoly on Jewish historical knowledge. Neither does being an Egyptian or an Arab, or anyone else. Yeah, a random rabbi, not the ultimate authority on everything Jewish, believe it or not. Your doubt is irrelevant, because it is unjustified, just as is your unwavering belief in the knowledge of a random rabbi.

                heh, see, u just proved that western news agencies does not show u all the news, they show only what they select for u.

                Since you seem to know better than me what agencies I read and watch, why don't you tell me what they are, since you see inside my head.
                ............
                In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by heso10 View Post
                  well, i checked what they have said about Mohammed Eldurra, although he is not the only one killed by Israel, but since u said that it may not be Israel, so i checked the internet on what both parties say.

                  Palestine say there were no autopsy because they already know who killed him, they also said that Israel removed the wall that was behind them where many of the bullets rested, the father said that israeli forces was the one who killed his boy, he said he waved to them to stop shooting, but they kept shooting, the camera man, said israeli soldiers were the one who killed the boy.

                  Bullets don't all go straigt through a person. Not to mention that the damage which they do to tissue allows you to determine what type of bullets they were.

                  Israel say that it was not israeli bullets that killed the boy, they say it was Palestinian bullets that killed the boy, an Israeli doctor said that he treated the father before, and he was not wounded in this gunfire.

                  France 2, the channel that owns the video tape, does not want to show the whole 27 mins tape, and it published about 3 minutes only.

                  i would believe the father and the cameraman, or even the father only, and forget about the rest.

                  I know a few people who have been shot during military confrontation. Many do not know who exactly shot them in such instances. But this father of his has magical powers to see and hear everything in every direction, huh?

                  May be Palestinians are lying to make Israel look bad, may be Israel and the Israeli doctor are lying to make Palestinians look bad and divert the attention on the possibility that their soldiers may have really killed the boy.

                  Yes, exactly why there should have been an autopsy.

                  i mean may be an Israeli soldier fired on his own without taking orders and they were trying to cover him up, may be it was Palestinian who killed the boy, but why a Palestinian will kill a Palestinian boy, and why the boy's father said that it was israeli soldiers as well as the cameraman said, and if it was Palestenians, why Israel did not report that there were any gunfires near their base and reacted upon them, as they were only firing on rioters coming from other street and those rioters were throwing rocks.

                  hmm, what do u think ? <-- that is not sarcasm, i am really asking.

                  I think there should have been an autopsy, and I think I've already expressed as much.
                  .................
                  In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                  The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Sorry to jump into the conversation without reading the entire thread! But I am getting the impression that

                    i mean may be an Israeli soldier fired on his own without taking orders and they were trying to cover him up, may be it was Palestinian who killed the boy, but why a Palestinian will kill a Palestinian boy

                    is referring to an old incidence more than a few years back, at early 2000ish? The Atlantic Monthly at least covered an incident like this one, and it is strongly indicated in their coverage that the boy and his father wandered into a raging gun battle between Israelis and Palestinians. From the location that they were shot gun fire could only come from the Palestinian side.

                    I am all for Two State Solution. The One State Solution is just damned impossible. It is going to be a forced marriage between people with irreconcilable differences. The cultural practices, politics, religion, laws and the national characters are seperated by an abyss.

                    At this point, arguing for anything other than a 2 state solution is counterproductive IMHO, because 1 state solution has already became fait accompoli. It's a done deal, with the wall, the two fueding Palestian authorities, and Israel firmly holding its terriotories. The sooner we get over this, the better off everyone--the Palestinian included--will be better off.

                    Lookie here, I don't want to see the Palestinians' suffering to prolong indefinately. But until they stopped venting their frustration by shooting rockets into Israeli residential areas and threantening to murder civilians, no one sane in the world will help them.
                    Last edited by Triple C; 06 Jul 08,, 09:45.
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                    • #85
                      There is a great recent article on the Al-Dura issue.

                      L'Affaire Enderlin


                      Those images went around the world and a lot of people got killed because of them.

                      What we now know for sure, is that France2 had no basis to say it was Israeli fire.

                      In my opinion, this is nothing less than a blood libel.

                      And very dangerous, because I would argue that the terrorist are fighting this war more in the west's tv sets than in the battlefield. It's almost the central battlefield for them.

                      But bottom line is, the argument of Israel attacking civilians won't wash. The IDF never attacks civilians. The armies of Jordan, Egypt & Syria have attacked civilians many times, and is the systematic modus operandi of Hamas, Hezbollah etc..

                      So the attempt to draw moral equivalence should be ridiculous. But PC, morally bankrupt western media such as the BBC or CNN uphold the fiction of a fifty/fifty event. It's unbelievable.

                      This, in the age of "Information".

                      Scary stuff.
                      L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                      • #86
                        In my view the only solution is to have Gaza go to Egypt, and what the Israelis don't need of the West Bank go to Jordan.

                        I realize the difficulty of convincing Jordan or Egypt, but I believe it is not impossible to achieve it whether they want or not.

                        I have followed this conflict for years and the fiasco of Camp David & Taba 2000-1 convinced me that a "Palestinian" state is not what the Arab-Palestinians are after, and will turn into a terrorist state the moment is created.
                        L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                        • #87
                          The Egytians and the Jordanians would want nothing of the Palestinians. Last time the handful of refugee camps they had spawned rebel armies. All that talk about Arab brotherhood is just lip service.

                          The IDF never attacks civilians.
                          Never is stretching it a bit. Israel had behaved as reasonably as could be expected of an army, but regrettable incidences do happen in war.
                          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                            The Egytians and the Jordanians would want nothing of the Palestinians. Last time the handful of refugee camps they had spawned rebel armies. All that talk about Arab brotherhood is just lip service.

                            True. Arabs fear Palestinians, and also cynically use them to attack Israel.

                            But, what happens if Israel seals the border with say, Gaza?

                            Is Egypt really going to leave its border closed too?

                            No. They will be forced to open it, and the relation will grow. At some point, if the rocket attacks continue, Egypt will be forced to even police Gaza, knowing that the exchange with Israel could escalate and draw Egypt itself into a war. Which they know they can't afford.
                            L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                              Never is stretching it a bit. Israel had behaved as reasonably as could be expected of an army, but regrettable incidences do happen in war.


                              As far as I know, in 60 years of perpetual war, there have been no instances of the Israeli army attacking civilians on purpose.

                              None.

                              It seems the Israelis executed a few prisoners once they had surrendered in the village of Deir Yassin, in the 1948 War. That's it. That's the worst that I know of them in this bitter war. In contrast, I don't need to explain what has been the behavior of the invading Arab armies. In that war, and after that war.

                              So I think their behavior is more than just what could be expected.

                              Israel is in fact the country in the world that complies with a higher standard of Human Rights facing comparable threats to its security.

                              If somebody thinks there is a better one, try to name it.

                              But if they are catching the BBC signal out there in Alpha-Centauri, the aliens must think that Israel is the worst violator of Human Rights in the world. When in fact the opposite is true.
                              L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                LOL, the pilots said " refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians. These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. "

                                So tell me exactly is it that u do not see it right, or it is that u ignore what u see ??, in all ur replies u ignore the facts i've given to u, then u start revolving about the subject accusing me of blah blah blah, i copy pasted it for u, all u had to do is to read it, and ur replay is
                                Read it again. They said nothing about having attacked civilians, just like I said.
                                ROFL, just like this replay
                                Since you seem to know better than me what agencies I read and watch, why don't you tell me what they are, since you see inside my head.
                                , i did tell u, but apparently u ignored them as well.
                                Then when u have nothing to say, u replay
                                I'm not sure what you are saying here because frankly it makes no sense.
                                Bottom of the line, i have been trying to have a civilized conversation, but all u do is being sarcastic, ignoring what i have been writing, then accusing me of ranting and such like ur replay
                                Stop ranting and show what you are talking about. Although if you are referring to Mohammed al-Durrah, there is no proof who he was shot by because he was buried without being allowed to get the bullets out of him and do a proper autopsy.
                                U ignored all what i have written and decided to replay as if i was talking only about him, u even said " Although if you are referring to Mohammed al-Durrah ", i mean, did i look like i am talking about him only !!!!!!!
                                oh yea, and this one.
                                I know a few people who have been shot during military confrontation. Many do not know who exactly shot them in such instances. But this father of his has magical powers to see and hear everything in every direction, huh?
                                if u are walking in the street and someone fired at u, then u woke up in hospital or ran away as far as u could, then u will never know what hit u, but the man was waving to them for many minutes before he was shot and his son was killed, do not u think he had time to see who fired at him ?? , did not u even see the clip ??, he was looking at the firing source direction and waving to them, Israel removed the wall that was behind them, should not they have waited till someone take the bullets off and examine them, besides the source direction was the Israeli military station, so u assume that Palestinians sneaked into the station then fired on the man and his son, are u kidding me ?? , u ignored that may be israel killed the boy and covered it, and assumed that somehow some Palestinians killed the boy from the station's direction and ran away without israeli soldiers noticing, yea right.

                                it is not the first time Israel denies anything to save herself, like its nuclear program, lavon's affair and USS liberty.

                                Do not try to make Israel looks like the innocent country and the whole world wants them dead, i never said that arab states or Palestinian organizations are innocent as well, i have been trying to discuss the bad things both do, but somehow u agree on the bad things the arab do, but strongly denies the bad things Israel do, why are u even arguing when u are already ignoring !!!.

                                Just like the other argument i have stated enough facts to prove my points, it is up to u to believe or not.

                                Last thing, some other funny things i have found in ur replies. no offense :D

                                Bullets don't all go straigt through a person.
                                LOL, and that was ur prove that israel did not kill the boy, rofl

                                Being a Jew does not give me a monopoly on Jewish historical knowledge. Neither does being an Egyptian or an Arab, or anyone else. Yeah, a random rabbi, not the ultimate authority on everything Jewish, believe it or not. Your doubt is irrelevant, because it is unjustified, just as is your unwavering belief in the knowledge of a random rabbi.
                                Well, then the writer did not really know if what he wrote was true or fulse, right ?, i bet if the writer was the one who said that jews were living in peace under Islamic rule and the rabbi said the opposite, u would have chose the rabbi and argued he knows more than a writer in jews history, please....

                                So... historical scholars are not as qualified on history as religious authorities? I'm pretty sure that is right along the same lines of thought as Holocaust denying mullahs in Iran who claim to know better than all the people who actually specialize in studying the subject.
                                Did i even talked about any Holocaust or mullah !!!, ur Andrew Bostom is a scholar and a prof teaching medicine, where is the word historical !!!!!!! , Nice one, try another one.

                                So what? Everyone in Israel knows someone's family that has been affected by a terrorist attack, many also have lost much there. That does not prove anything.
                                there is a big difference between affected and died MR. , if we are talking about affected, then allow me to tell u that the whole arab world is negatively affected by Israel and what is has been doing in the region, and if we r talking about who has more civilians dead because of the other, i think u know the answer of that, or u ignored that too ??

                                Or it is convenient for your world view to believe him, so you choose to do so.
                                Did i say that my world believes the rabbi ???? , i have said that i have talked with a rabbi, do not deviate my words, so, tell me what i should believe, that jews came to Palestine, made their own country by force, then say " all we need is our land back and peace with the neighbors ", are u kidding me ??, what about having the land from the Nile to the Forat river, will they have that through peace ??? , u really think that ?

                                What you said had not point, it was just a bottomless rant.
                                Lol, that was ur replay, instead of proving me wrong, u just said that ???, well, it is not the first time u do it.

                                You have absolutely no proof of that. No one does, because it does not exist. Nothing besides propaganda statements even imply such a thing.
                                Weird that the term propaganda u use when talking about arabs, and ignores the israeli one, Israel said that its attack in 1967 was a self defense to "future" attacks from Egypt, Syria and jordan, hmm, by ur standards, that was only an israeli propaganda which really did not exist, as well as Egyptian army was trying to remove israel from the map with an unmechanized army, also by your standards, since Egyptian army stopped at 12 km from the canal, and held defensive positions, then also " israel was fighting for her life " was just a propaganda, as well, as " killing the 3rd Egyptian army in 1973 " since it really did not happen, and no one knows what would have happen, then it was only just a propaganda. But no, u do not believe that, u believe that all these things were the truth, but u considers everything told by anyone against israel is a propaganda, well, u need to start considering the existence of the term term logic.

                                Oh, sorry, we forgot to give the Israelis the memo on purposefully using their civilian population as human shield. I'm sure once they actually stop caring about the civilians who live around them, which is Hamas's attitude, then all the death counts will even out and you'll be satisfied.
                                actually they do have a memo of using Palestenians only as a human shield.

                                End of discussion.

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