U.S. Response to Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

[Albany Rifles]

Seems we're sending M106 HE 8" (203mm) projos to Ukraine to feed their 2S7 Pion guns-

Ukrainian 2S7 PION Shoots With American 203mm Rounds- June 23, 2023 Militarnyi

Guess that'd open the way for 8" DPICM too. OTOH, if the decision to provide DPICM ignores performance considerations while, for present, sufficient stocks of M106 HE are available to service those rounds may not be included.

I'm not happy about a lot of sanctimonious blather about DPICM coming from our friends. The issues are stark if unpalatable. We're here for a lot of reasons but, without question, because we've collectively allowed our DIB to erode. Secondly, the combatant we support has requested them. They're the duly-elected officials representing the will of a people engaged in a war of national survival. The cumulative human costs to Ukraine by virtue of Russia's continuing occupation and attendant war crimes implores we consider EVERY weapon that can speed this conclusion. Third, for a lot of reasons, there's much that can be done to mitigate adverse effects, most notably recording and documenting all target data, as it is serviced by these munitions, and mapping that data for de-mining operations. Those operations are critical for both reasons of operational mobility during combat and to assure civilian safety in any post-war environment. Knowing where that sh!t has been used, therefore, is paramount...and easily accomplished by those with any sense of responsibility for their fellow soldiers and citizens. Ukrainian artillerymen will have every reason to want DPICM use properly documented and mapped.

For the next 100 years or more, regardless, farmers, children and others throughout Ukraine will face some type of dormant munitions threat. They're still digging up shit in France and elsewhere-

100 Years After WW1 Unexploded Bombs Still Litter Northern France-RFI July 12, 2018

Yeah...I don't know wa===hat I was saying about DPICM and troops in trenches. And all the possible issues you guys mention are very real...but it beats nothing as Steve brings out.

And good thing they have their own 203mm guns are all gone,

The barrels were converted to GBU-28s or sold via foreign military sales. Withdrawn from US service in 1994.

[S2]

Seems we're sending M106 HE 8" (203mm) projos to Ukraine to feed their 2S7 Pion guns-

Ukrainian 2S7 PION Shoots With American 203mm Rounds- June 23, 2023 Militarnyi

Guess that'd open the way for 8" DPICM too. OTOH, if the decision to provide DPICM ignores performance considerations while, for present, sufficient stocks of M106 HE are available to service those rounds may not be included.

I'm not happy about a lot of sanctimonious blather about DPICM coming from our friends. The issues are stark if unpalatable. We're here for a lot of reasons but, without question, because we've collectively allowed our DIB to erode. Secondly, the combatant we support has requested them. They're the duly-elected officials representing the will of a people engaged in a war of national survival. The cumulative human costs to Ukraine by virtue of Russia's continuing occupation and attendant war crimes implores we consider EVERY weapon that can speed this conclusion. Third, for a lot of reasons, there's much that can be done to mitigate adverse effects, most notably recording and documenting all target data, as it is serviced by these munitions, and mapping that data for de-mining operations. Those operations are critical for both reasons of operational mobility during combat and to assure civilian safety in any post-war environment. Knowing where that sh!t has been used, therefore, is paramount...and easily accomplished by those with any sense of responsibility for their fellow soldiers and citizens. Ukrainian artillerymen will have every reason to want DPICM use properly documented and mapped.

For the next 100 years or more, regardless, farmers, children and others throughout Ukraine will face some type of dormant munitions threat. They're still digging up shit in France and elsewhere-

100 Years After WW1 Unexploded Bombs Still Litter Northern France-RFI July 12, 2018

[S2]

"M546 rounds (APERS-T)"

Naw Gunny, that lil' gem warmed my heart- A.) you need a 105mm how to access its rare beauty and, B.) you needed a willing, stupid rifle platoon to assault your gun position.

I always presumed the Russians had a 152mm DPICM equivalent. M109A1 SP batteries were tailor-made targets for that sh!t.

Thus "...fear of God..."

[S2]

"This bit of the above post surprises me a little (well at least as far as SK goes anyway). 'S. Korea and Israel aren't in a major hurry to help'"

Japan is providing TNT to manufacturers but won't manufacture ammo for the war. S. Korea sold 500,000 155mm rounds to U.S. to back-fill ammo we'd sent from existing stockpiles (probably in S. Korea) but evidently feel no need to directly piss off Russia.

Israel? Who the fcuk knows?

[Gun Grape]

[

Still, if there was one munition that put the absolute fear of God in me, it was DPICM.

M546 rounds (APERS-T)

[Monash]

This bit of the above post surprises me a little (well at least as far as SK goes anyway). "S. Korea and Israel aren't in a major hurry to help" I would have thought that ramping up production of 155 artillery rounds and (basic) fuses would be one of the simplest and cheapest forms of assistance to provide. And I'm just talking about ordering extra production runs here not starting up whole new production lines or (god forbid) new factories. I'm grossly simplifying the issue of course but how hard would it be for SK or any of it's allies for that matter to just phone Hyundai or whoever it is that produces SK's shells and place some orders? (Unless of course the factories concerned were already running at full capacity before the the war started but how likely is that?)

It's not going to solve the problem of course but it would assist. As for Israel? Doing stuff for others doesn't seem to have been on its agenda for a while now. To others yes, for others no.

[S2]

"Want to kill troops in trenches? Teach the Ukraine Gunners how to use time fuzes..."

True, true. M564 MTSQ screwed into a good ol' M107 HE round. Further truth about dud rates. NSA Jake Sullivan said about 2.5%. AR said well under. Gunny says sub-optimal target conditions push it way up to 70%. UKR fire direction sucks. Apps are bad. Sticks are good

It's a big Whatever.

The issue is more basic than all that. WE (umm...all of us) are running out of 155mm munitions, most notably good ol' M107HE. Ukraine's shooting about 110,000 shells of all types per month. They'd like to be shooting more...but can't. The production capacity isn't there in the west. S. Korea and Israel aren't in a major hurry to help and our ramp-up efforts haven't yet kicked in. Even then, they don't really scratch the need unless EU efforts to ramp up also happen.

The biggest reason to move Ukraine from Soviet-era artillery wasn't elevated gun performance. It was ammo. Soviet era ammo available for Ukrainian guns was coming to a definitive end. Had to be done. Given our production limitations, however, we have only bought some time. DPICM buys us more time. Not perfect for a lot of reasons.

Still, if there was one munition that put the absolute fear of God in me, it was DPICM. I just wish we'd send some M110A2s and shoot some of THAT ammo.

[TopHatter]

Here endeth the lesson from the Artilleryman's Bible (Chapter 3, verse 5). Lets us all now say a short prayer and then fire 3 rounds for effect!

Consult the Book of Armaments!

Armaments, Chapter 2, Verses 9 to 21

[Monash]

Here endeth the lesson from the Artilleryman's Bible (Chapter 3, verse 5). Lets us all now say a short prayer and then fire 3 rounds for effect!

[Gun Grape]

Everything I am hearing is what we are sending are not Cluster Bomb Units which are aircraft dropped. We are sending 155mm DPICM, dual-purpose improved conventional munitions. These are delivered by artillery and have a very low rate of duds...especially when talking recent lots. Well under a 1% dud rate. They are extremely effective against vehicle formations and dug in troops. Especially for troops who are dug into defenses with a lack of overhead cover, something which I have seen missing from all defensive positions filmed in this war so far.

The UAF has burned through a LOT of 155mm HE rounds so these will help take up the slack.

Use whatever conventional means of munitions you can get your hands on while you face an existential threat and worry about consequences later.

The dud rate is a bit of "Elfin Magic" Its one of those test where we fire at a quadrant to ensure max dispersal, with no wind with the impact area that is a flat hard surface (Think Yuma Proving Grounds).
Then we go down range, count the duds and tell Green Peace that we are a Humane Killing Machine

A "This vehicle gets 45MPG" sort of test with few real world applications.

Cant/shouldn't be used in tree lines (Like where all of the Russian trenches are in so many videos). Not good in Mud/Snow/Loose soil, slopes more than 30% kicks the dud rate up to around 70%.

Would not fire them against trenches. Not what it was designed for. Designed to stop Mech/Armor attacks/Troops in the open. When the Russians leave their trenches and assault on line across the open field. Thats what you use it for. Or Counter Battery when you don't have an exact location but pretty darn close. (The days before CBR when we did crater analysis and sound ranging) (Am I dating myself?) Thats what DPICM was designed for.

Want to kill troops in trenches? Teach the Ukraine Gunners how to use time fuzes. Every video I see of them engaging "Troops in the open" The bounce Impact rounds (PD) all around them.
Pop a airburst round 70 meters above them and show them what "Steel Rain" is all about.

The UAF needs to stop winging Fire Computation with their "We developed a app for our laptop so we don't need to learn AFADATS/BUCS/ Charts and Darts. Send some FDC types to The Blockhouse and become the Decisive Arm on the Battlefield that they should be.

Oh, and there is no reason to waste ammo on tank plinking, unless it is IDed as a Command Tank. Grunts have Anti tank weapons. Let them use them

(end of rant)

Don't get me started on the Helos lobbing rockets in the general direction of the enemy or airplanes lobbing JDAMS

[Albany Rifles]

Reports I've read on the Russian defensive lines state that the main trench lines at least are bolstered of bunkers designed the protect the occupants from at least standard artillery munitions. Troops deployed out into the trench line retreat into the bunkers when they come under fire. Very WW1 but supposedly effective.

If the above is true I'm not sure how much of a difference DPICMs will make in such situations. On the other hand they would no doubt be very effective against troops in the open and I've also read that the Russians have so far apparently been adopting an active defense doctrine with troops moving out into the forward security zone in front of the trenches to challenge Ukrainian troops before they can reach and breach the trench lines (and while they are stuck are stuck trying to break through minefields and other obstacles). If true, those formations would be vulnerable and DPICs would make the attackers job a little easier.

If the vatniks are cowering in a bunker it makes it easier to take them out with a conventional round. A 122/152/155mm HE Delay will penetrate anything not made of reinforced concrete. They also up the kill effects on armor and vehicles. You no longer have to use a GMLRS or Excalibur round to hit a tank.

[Monash]

Everything I am hearing is what we are sending are not Cluster Bomb Units which are aircraft dropped. We are sending 155mm DPICM, dual-purpose improved conventional munitions. These are delivered by artillery and have a very low rate of duds...especially when talking recent lots. Well under a 1% dud rate. They are extremely effective against vehicle formations and dug in troops. Especially for troops who are dug into defenses with a lack of overhead cover, something which I have seen missing from all defensive positions filmed in this war so far.

The UAF has burned through a LOT of 155mm HE rounds so these will help take up the slack.

Use whatever conventional means of munitions you can get your hands on while you face an existential threat and worry about consequences later.

Reports I've read on the Russian defensive lines state that the main trench lines at least are bolstered of deep bunkers designed the protect the occupants from at least standard artillery munitions. Troops deployed out into the trench lines retreat into the bunkers when they come under fire. Very WW1 but supposedly effective.

If the above is true I'm not sure how much of a difference DPICMs will make in such situations. On the other hand they would no doubt be very effective against troops in the open and I've also read that the Russians have so far apparently been adopting an active defense doctrine that in part relies on Russian troops deploying forward into the security zone in from of their fortifications. The idea being to challenge engage Ukrainian troops before they can reach and breach the trench lines. Basically attacks/counter attacks on Ukrainian assault formations while they are stuck trying to clear minefields and breach other obstacles. If true, those formations would be vulnerable and DPICs would make the attackers job a little easier.

[Albany Rifles]

Everything I am hearing is what we are sending are not Cluster Bomb Units which are aircraft dropped. We are sending 155mm DPICM, dual-purpose improved conventional munitions. These are delivered by artillery and have a very low rate of duds...especially when talking recent lots. Well under a 1% dud rate. They are extremely effective against vehicle formations and dug in troops. Especially for troops who are dug into defenses with a lack of overhead cover, something which I have seen missing from all defensive positions filmed in this war so far.

The UAF has burned through a LOT of 155mm HE rounds so these will help take up the slack.

Use whatever conventional means of munitions you can get your hands on while you face an existential threat and worry about consequences later.

[Officer of Engineers]

It is not clear how America’s NATO allies would view the U.S. providing cluster bombs to Ukraine and whether the issue might prove divisive for their largely united support of Kyiv. More than two-thirds of the 30 countries in the alliance are signatories of the 2010 convention on cluster munitions.

We'll turn a blind eye to their usage, just as we've turned a blind eye to Kiev's violations of the Ottawa Treaty with their usages of butterfly mines.

https://www.businessinsider.com/huma...d-mines-2023-7

[TopHatter]

The US will provide cluster munitions to Ukraine as part of a new military aid package: AP sources

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration has decided to provide cluster munitions to Ukraine and is expected to announce on Friday that the Pentagon will send thousands as part of the latest military aid package for the war effort against Russia, according to people familiar with the decision.

The decision comes despite widespread concerns that the controversial bombs can cause civilian casualties. The Pentagon will provide munitions that have a reduced “dud rate,” meaning there will be far fewer unexploded rounds that can result in unintended civilian deaths.

U.S. officials said Thursday that the cluster munitions would be part of about $800 million in new military assistance to Ukraine.

Long sought by Ukraine, cluster bombs are weapons that open in the air, releasing submunitions, or “bomblets,” that are dispersed over a large area and are intended to wreak destruction on multiple targets at once.

The officials and others familiar with the decision were not authorized to publicly discuss the move before the official announcement and spoke on condition of anonymity.

Ukrainian officials have asked for the weapons to aid their campaign to push through lines of Russian troops and make gains in the ongoing counteroffensive. Russian forces are already using cluster munitions on the battlefield, U.S. officials have said.

According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, some cluster munitions leave behind “bomblets’’ that have a high rate of failure to explode — up to 40% in some cases. U.S. officials said Thursday that the rate of unexploded ordnance for the munitions that will be going to Ukraine is less than 3% and therefore will mean fewer threats left behind to civilians.

Cluster bombs can be fired by artillery that the U.S. has provided to Ukraine, and the Pentagon has a large stockpile of them.

The last large-scale American use of cluster bombs was during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, according to the Pentagon. But U.S. forces considered them a key weapon during the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, according to Human Rights Watch. In the first three years of that conflict, it is estimated the U.S.-led coalition dropped more than 1,500 cluster bombs in Afghanistan.

Proponents of banning cluster bombs say they kill indiscriminately and endanger civilians long after their use. Groups have raised alarms about Russia’s use of the munitions in Ukraine.

A convention banning the use of cluster bombs has been joined by more than 120 countries who agreed not to use, produce, transfer or stockpile the weapons and to clear them after they’ve been used.

The United States, Russia and Ukraine are among the countries that have not signed on.

It is not clear how America’s NATO allies would view the U.S. providing cluster bombs to Ukraine and whether the issue might prove divisive for their largely united support of Kyiv. More than two-thirds of the 30 countries in the alliance are signatories of the 2010 convention on cluster munitions.

Laura Cooper, a deputy assistant secretary of defense focusing on Russia and Ukraine, recently testified to Congress that the Pentagon has assessed that such munitions would help Kyiv press through Russia’s dug-in positions.
_________

The return of Steel Rain...

I hope they're doubling up on EOD equipment and training for Ukraine as well, although it's not like Russia (and Ukraine?) haven't been using them already