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  • Originally posted by Monash View Post
    I figured multiple explosions would be required anyway. So maybe something along lines of those ant-runway cluster munitions might work i.e. lots of smaller bomblets designed to detonate before impact and generating a downward, conical pressure zone in a line through the minefield. It would still take multiple missiles or drones but at least it might be quick (if it worked). I suspect its probably already been tried though.
    Thermobarics, by its very nature, is an air burst. Already right off the bat, max over pressure is not applied to the mine. MICLIC, on the other hand, is ground detonation, meaning max over pressure is directly applied to wherever the line touches. In this case, a clear lane. In the case of bomblets, you have increasingly smaller over pressure, nowhere equal to one big bomb, thus defeating the purpose of applying max over pressure. It's been thought of and found wanting. MICLIC is still the cheaper, more effective solution.

    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Thermobarics, by its very nature, is an air burst. Already right off the bat, max over pressure is not applied to the mine. MICLIC, on the other hand, is ground detonation, meaning max over pressure is directly applied to wherever the line touches. In this case, a clear lane. In the case of bomblets, you have increasingly smaller over pressure, nowhere equal to one big bomb, thus defeating the purpose of applying max over pressure. It's been thought of and found wanting. MICLIC is still the cheaper, more effective solution.
      Understood. Second time round (the bomblet scenario) I was thinking more along the lines of conventional HE sub-munitions.
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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      • Originally posted by Monash View Post

        Understood. Second time round (the bomblet scenario) I was thinking more along the lines of conventional HE sub-munitions.
        HE submunitions (ICM/DPICM) create minefields due to high dud rate. They don't clear them.
        If they worked perfectly you would need a bomblet saturation level that covered every foot to ensure you hit every mine

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        • Satellite photo showing the burned wreckage of two Il-76s at Kresty Airbase in Pskov. It kind of looks like the rest are taxiing to GTFO, but besides the one on the runway perhaps they've just been towed out onto the taxiway. Two more have charring on their fuselage between the wings. Orxy counts two as destroyed, two as damaged beyond recovery.

          From here: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...infrared-image

          Attached Files
          Last edited by Ironduke; 01 Sep 23,, 02:29.
          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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          • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

            We., and the Russians have known that ever since thermals sights were deployed. Think 1980s.

            The workaround to defeat that technique is to plant steel plates with the same shape as your mines in the minefield. They heat up in the sun just like the real mines do and give off the same signature at night. Nihil novi sub sole

            Don't get me started on the Oohs and Aahs with their "Revolution of 21st Century Warfare" in using cheap drones for artillery spotting and recon. And hen telling us how backward we are for trying to get them to learn and use old school human assets
            Hell we were equipping our MI units with recon drones back in the mid-80s.

            What we are seeing is more a matter of size and scope and not a new capability.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Thermobarics, by its very nature, is an air burst. Already right off the bat, max over pressure is not applied to the mine. MICLIC, on the other hand, is ground detonation, meaning max over pressure is directly applied to wherever the line touches. In this case, a clear lane. In the case of bomblets, you have increasingly smaller over pressure, nowhere equal to one big bomb, thus defeating the purpose of applying max over pressure. It's been thought of and found wanting. MICLIC is still the cheaper, more effective solution.
              Not to mention easier to deploy and emplace. Already a large stock and our NATO allies have some variants of the type.

              There were some fearsome use of MICLICs in Fallujah to trip IEDs in buildings. They would fire a MICLIC down a street, ignite it and resultant overpressure would trip IEDs in the road and buildings...not to mention a few bad guys as well.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

              Comment


              • This is required reading. Kofman and Rob Lee's summary to date and assessment going forward-

                Perseverance and Adaptation: Ukraine's Counteroffensive At Three Months-War On The Rocks 9/4/23
                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                • Looks like Putin is meeting Kim... what can NK supply? Artillery ammo, drones, whatever missiles are not too obsolete... could they also serve as secret intermediary with China?

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                  • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                    Looks like Putin is meeting Kim... what can NK supply? Artillery ammo, drones, whatever missiles are not too obsolete... could they also serve as secret intermediary with China?
                    In amounts significant enough to actually make a difference on the battlefield? Only conventional (dumb) artillery and mortar shells. Even basic items like military clothing and boots are probably a stretch to far given the disparity in average size between NK and Russian soldiers ('stretch' in this case would have a literal meaning).

                    In theory I suppose they could also provide manpower for manual labor in factories and behind the front lines but even in those roles I suspect they'd mostly be more of a hindrance than a help (at least initially) due to language issues, the generally poor levels of health/nutrition suffered by NK nationals and an overall lack of training in anything but the most basic of military skills. The bulk of NK conscripts spend their term of service working on farms and/or building or repairing infrastructure not training for combat and Kim won't want to part with elite units as he needs those to shore up his rule at home. So I suspect mainly things that go 'boom'.
                    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                    • Following the old "if it looks dumb but it works..."

                      Russia Is Using Tires To Protect Its Bombers From Aerial Attack

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                      • some commentary regarding NATO training from the 32nd Mech Brigade. the Ukrainian decision to use newly-mobilized brigades to undergo Western training and receive Western equipment had some downsides, wherein the training was incomplete, focused on basic infantry skills, and sometimes could not be adapted to the realities of the front.

                        reading this, seems like what they really needed was to do their own basic training first, do a short rotation on the front lines, THEN use NATO training as an add-on course. also, NATO training should really incorporate more of what we've observed of the war to provide that higher-level training.

                        https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/stat...93558685618235

                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          some commentary regarding NATO training from the 32nd Mech Brigade. the Ukrainian decision to use newly-mobilized brigades to undergo Western training and receive Western equipment had some downsides, wherein the training was incomplete, focused on basic infantry skills, and sometimes could not be adapted to the realities of the front.

                          reading this, seems like what they really needed was to do their own basic training first, do a short rotation on the front lines, THEN use NATO training as an add-on course. also, NATO training should really incorporate more of what we've observed of the war to provide that higher-level training.

                          https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/stat...93558685618235
                          But how long would all that take?...

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                          • A bit of a shocking excerpt from the article from the new Elon Musk biography. Seems a bit treasonous to me on Elon's part if true.

                            "Elon Musk secretly ordered his engineers to turn off his company’s Starlink satellite communications network near the Crimean coast last year to disrupt a Ukrainian sneak attack on the Russian naval fleet, according to an excerpt adapted from Walter Isaacson’s new biography of the eccentric billionaire titled “Elon Musk.”

                            As Ukrainian submarine drones strapped with explosives approached the Russian fleet, they “lost connectivity and washed ashore harmlessly,” Isaacson writes."



                            https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/polit...ink/index.html

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                              A bit of a shocking excerpt from the article from the new Elon Musk biography. Seems a bit treasonous to me on Elon's part if true.

                              "Elon Musk secretly ordered his engineers to turn off his company’s Starlink satellite communications network near the Crimean coast last year to disrupt a Ukrainian sneak attack on the Russian naval fleet, according to an excerpt adapted from Walter Isaacson’s new biography of the eccentric billionaire titled “Elon Musk.”

                              As Ukrainian submarine drones strapped with explosives approached the Russian fleet, they “lost connectivity and washed ashore harmlessly,” Isaacson writes."



                              https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/polit...ink/index.html
                              I'm sure this had something to do with "free speech"
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                some commentary regarding NATO training from the 32nd Mech Brigade. the Ukrainian decision to use newly-mobilized brigades to undergo Western training and receive Western equipment had some downsides, wherein the training was incomplete, focused on basic infantry skills, and sometimes could not be adapted to the realities of the front.

                                reading this, seems like what they really needed was to do their own basic training first, do a short rotation on the front lines, THEN use NATO training as an add-on course. also, NATO training should really incorporate more of what we've observed of the war to provide that higher-level training.

                                https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/stat...93558685618235
                                I would do it the opposite. Send them to the NATO schools first. Then when they get back, have the Ukraine Army teach AO specific task, Intermix new units with NCOs Jr Officers with combat experience. And last, What they should be doing every day before any action, Rehearsals, Rehearsals, Rehearsals

                                The first time a soldier throws a real grenade in a trench, bunker, assaults a trenchline, clears a minefield or conducts a movement to contact should not be ones filled with enemy soldiers.

                                When the US Army /USMC want to learn Bde level breaching ops they go to Ft Irwin/29 Palms. And its a one size fits all, this is the basic concept it works everywhere.
                                When they need to do it for real in different environments. We rehearse, find what needs to be changed because of local situation, incorporate that , practice again, then go kick ass
                                Last edited by Gun Grape; 08 Sep 23,, 00:39.

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