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  • Russia currently has 560K documented prison population. Don't know their undocumented size. They ain't running out of penal battalions anytime soon.
    Chimo

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    • I know this is to Poland but I wonder if it could be a way to back channel ATACMS to Ukraine.



      https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/maj...ystem-himars-0


      POLAND – HIGH MOBILITY ARTILLERY ROCKET SYSTEM (HIMARS)

      Media/Public Contact
      [email protected]
      Transmittal No
      23-10

      WASHINGTON, February 7, 2023 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Poland of M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers and related equipment for an estimated cost of $10 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

      The Republic of Poland has requested to buy eighteen (18) M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers; four hundred sixty-eight (468) HIMARS Launcher Loader Module kits; forty-five (45) M57 Army Tactical Missile Systems (ATACMS); four hundred sixty-one (461) M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Alternative Warhead (GMLRS-AW) pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion System (IMPS); five hundred twenty-one (521) M31A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Unitary (GMLRS-U) pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion System (IMPS); and five hundred thirty-two (532) XM403 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Extended Range Alternative Warhead (GMLRS-ER AW) pods. Also included are Low Cost Reduced Range Practice Rockets; support equipment; communications equipment; spare and repair parts; test sets; batteries; laptop computers; publications and technical data; facility design; personnel training and equipment; systems integration support; Quality Assurance Teams and a Technical Assistance Fielding Team; United States Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services; training; sensors; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $10 billion.

      This proposed sale will support the foreign policy goals and national security objectives of the United States by improving the security of a NATO Ally that is a force for political stability and economic progress in Europe.

      The proposed sale will improve Poland’s military goals of updating capability while further enhancing interoperability with the United States and other allies. Poland intends to use these defense articles and services to modernize its armed forces and expand its capability to strengthen its homeland defense and deter regional threats. Poland will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment into its armed forces.

      The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

      The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin, Grand Prairie, TX. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale. Any future offset agreement would be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and the contractor(s).

      Implementation of this proposed sale will require U.S. Government or contractor representatives to travel to Poland for program management reviews to support the program. Travel is expected to occur approximately twice per year as needed to support equipment fielding and training.

      There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

      This notice of a potential sale is required by law. The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.

      All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected].
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

      Comment


      • You have to give the Russian credit for their gender neutrality practice!
        Or maybe it’s simply a way of making room in their women prisons!
        Never know when they might need the space!!!


        https://politiko.al/english/bota/hum...-ne-uk-i475406
        When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Russia currently has 560K documented prison population. Don't know their undocumented size. They ain't running out of penal battalions anytime soon.
          They can't really force their entire prison population to fight. A lot of it perhaps but not all. Some prisoners will be too near the end of their sentences or have too short a sentence to be interested, others too old or too sick and some will have enough outside connections to create waves e.g. gang members may have the money/leverage to evade conscription. Especially since by now word will have got back about your life expectancy on the front if you do enlist.
          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Monash View Post
            They can't really force their entire prison population to fight. A lot of it perhaps but not all. Some prisoners will be too near the end of their sentences or have too short a sentence to be interested, others too old or too sick and some will have enough outside connections to create waves e.g. gang members may have the money/leverage to evade conscription. Especially since by now word will have got back about your life expectancy on the front if you do enlist.
            You're talking as if Putin's Russia is a country of laws. Putin made short work of Russian oligarchs who opposed him. You think prison gangs would be up to the task? Mobiks are also comprised of the insane and old. Incarcerated insane and old won't be allowed a better choice. The only thing stopping massive emptying of Russian prisons is the lack of barrier troops.

            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              You're talking as if Putin's Russia is a country of laws. Putin made short work of Russian oligarchs who opposed him. You think prison gangs would be up to the task? Mobiks are also comprised of the insane and old. Incarcerated insane and old won't be allowed a better choice. The only thing stopping massive emptying of Russian prisons is the lack of barrier troops.
              No, it's just that at some point the number of people required to force others to do something they don't want to do becomes prohibitively wasteful. Unwilling 'volunteers' from jail would have to be guarded during transfer to training facilities, guarded while being trained and equipped then guarded again all the way to the front. If you've armed them? More guards are required. If you don't? Then you have to guard a slave labor force while they toil at whatever task it is they've been assigned to. There's simply no way that process ever can or will be as efficient as Russia's standard conscription system and it's pool of potential civilian conscripts. And that's after calling their Conscription system 'efficient'! Which is setting an extremely low bar on what any normal person would ever call 'efficient'.
              Last edited by Monash; 10 Feb 23,, 01:28.
              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

              Comment


              • Being trained? I think you have a poor idea what penal battalions are. They're not trained. They're shipped to the front. Right past barrier/anti-retreat machine gun nests. Be given weapons with limited ammo and told to charge. Anyone not rushing forward will be shot on sight.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • It's a bit of an exaggeration here (this happen just not at Stalingrad) but not by very much but the barrier/anti-retreat action is no exaggeration


                  Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Feb 23,, 05:46.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    Being trained? I think you have a poor idea what penal battalions are. They're not trained. They're shipped to the front. Right past barrier/anti-retreat machine gun nests. Be given weapons with limited ammo and told to charge. Anyone not rushing forward will be shot on sight.
                    As noted above yes, it happened from time to time but it was never, even at the worst part of the war (from Russia's perspective) the norm and never regarded as being a truly effective tactic. If it was they would have continued using it, they didn't. Instead it was more a case of using people you were going to kill anyway (in labor camps) to some marginal effect. Probably because the distance to the front lines was far less than the distance to the camps!

                    For all his manifest flaws Putin is not Stalin nor can he hope to use that kind of tactic in the 21st century without it becoming widely known, both at home and abroad. And the 'message' such a tactic would send about how the war was going would NOT be a positive one for his fellow Russian's.
                    Last edited by Monash; 08 Feb 23,, 06:49.
                    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                    Comment


                    • Of course it's the norm and it is widely known. At 40K KIA, WAGNER is pretty well using full frontal assaults. We know WAGNER is using barrier troops. They're even boasting about it. What's keeping WAGNER from using more penal battalions is the lack of barrier troops. They're in the same recruiting pool for combat effectives as the regforce assault bdes. Do note that the use of Penal Battalions have been restricted to non-Russian Army units, ie WAGNER and Chechen mercs.

                      No, it's not a combat effective tactic but it did put a win in WAGNER's books and they have no other option if they want to be paid. As such, WAGNER will continue to get as many Penal Battalions as it can handle (~60K) and as long as they have the barrier troops, that number will not go down and will go up only if they manage to recruit more barrier forces.
                      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Feb 23,, 07:13.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Of course it's the norm and it is widely known. At 40K KIA, WAGNER is pretty well using full frontal assaults. We know WAGNER is using barrier troops. They're even boasting about it. What's keeping WAGNER from using more penal battalions is the lack of barrier troops. They're in the same recruiting pool for combat effectives as the regforce assault bdes. Do note that the use of Penal Battalions have been restricted to non-Russian Army units, ie WAGNER and Chechen mercs.

                        No, it's not a combat effective tactic but it did put a win in WAGNER's books and they have no other option if they want to be paid. As such, WAGNER will continue to get as many Penal Battalions as it can handle (~60K) and as long as they have the barrier troops, that number will not go down and will go up only if they manage to recruit more barrier forces.
                        Wagner's doing it yes, but the scale is limited and based on the news reports I've read Wagner's pool of 'wiling' volunteers has rapidly dried up. Just as soon as news of the casualty figures got back to Russian prisons. And Wagner isn't the Russian Government. Putin does NOT want to raise it's bosses profile any further by mimicking his ideas.
                        Last edited by Monash; 10 Feb 23,, 01:30.
                        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                        Comment


                        • What willing volunteers? You think 40K volunteered for a full frontal assault on Ukrainian fortifications? And precisely that WAGNER is not the Russian government that they're able to do this. WAGNER got free reign in the prisons. We've got enough deserters who state that WAGNER is dragging able body prisoners out.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • Just so we're on the same page. No, WAGNER is not going to field 460K criminals. What I am saying is that they've got plenty of replacement penal battalions.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Just so we're on the same page. No, WAGNER is not going to field 460K criminals. What I am saying is that they've got plenty of replacement penal battalions.
                              Agreed. But my point is that the Russian Government isn't really in a position to do so either. Apart from the fact they have a far deeper pool of conscripts than they do convicts even at home it would be a PR disaster for them. A 'private company' might be able to get away with hiring a few thousand mercenaries from the convict population. If the Russian Government starts doing it it's an admission of defeat!
                              Last edited by Monash; 08 Feb 23,, 09:26.
                              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                              Comment


                              • But the Russian government is doing it. WAGNER couldn't do what it does without Putin's ok.
                                Chimo

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