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  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Albany Rifles made some good points. Now the thing is what is more profitable. Sending 300.000 troops to the frontlines or deploy tactical nukes? I bet that that is the math that is being crunched right now.

    And feel sorry for the poor bastards who end up getting stuck with this...I had to go through therapy for a couple of years after that job...and I only held the job for 13 months.
    That is the reality of the world we live in. It sucks but it is what it is.

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    • Originally posted by Versus View Post

      That is the reality of the world we live in. It sucks but it is what it is.
      I knew what I was signing up for when I went from enlisted to commissioned. I had some spectacular assignments along the way. Fortunately during those 13 months that planning was a secondary task. But it was still soul sucking.
      Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.
      Mark Twain

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      • Originally posted by Versus View Post

        My candidates are Liviv and Odessa. Stage one is already underway with 9M730, by the end of this month if memory serves me well. They will do it, its no matter if but when and the hunch says that they will do it 3 times in a row.
        Seems awfully vulgar, and not something Russians back home would enjoy hearing. Russia has been insisting these last 7 months that it does not target civilians. Putin claims Ukraine was the one shelling civilians in the Donbass since 2014. That Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner; that the Ukrainian army uses civilians as human shields etc.

        Russia would willingly and for the first time openly abandon its self declared operational M.O. and slaughter 10s or 100s of thousands of civilians, many Russian speaking? Very vulgar indeed.

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        • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post

          Seems awfully vulgar, and not something Russians back home would enjoy hearing. Russia has been insisting these last 7 months that it does not target civilians. Putin claims Ukraine was the one shelling civilians in the Donbass since 2014. That Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner; that the Ukrainian army uses civilians as human shields etc.

          Russia would willingly and for the first time openly abandon its self declared operational M.O. and slaughter 10s or 100s of thousands of civilians, many Russian speaking? Very vulgar indeed.
          Human nature is pretty savage and the layer that we call civility is very very thin. Seeing this and remembering the things that happened here during the 90es I wonder does it really exist or is it just a figment of our imagination.

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          • People,

            Look. The Russians have not trained to deploy a field tac nuke for decades. That means that no Field Grade has the release authority. Forget the saliva and ink. They mean absolutely nothing. Warning orders and nuke weapons movements are what we look for and there has BEEN ZERO indications of increased activity. No unit has started training on delivering nukes on speicific simulated Ukrainian terrain. So, don't start looking for mushroom clouds just yet.

            2nd, it will be at least 60 days before any of the new 300K can see the Ukrainian Front. 2 weeks to organize and collect the people. 30 days trainiing. And 1 week to get them into the field. In short, not enough time to stop the upcoming Ukrainian push.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Sep 22,, 22:51.
            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by Versus View Post

              Human nature is pretty savage and the layer that we call civility is very very thin. Seeing this and remembering the things that happened here during the 90es I wonder does it really exist or is it just a figment of our imagination.
              Whatever happened during the 90's, as you say, pales in significance to the contemporary detonation of a nuclear weapon in anger in a human populated city, regardless of what happened "in the '90s".

              Frankly, I would have assumed this would be assumed, almost as scripture, by interested parties on WAB.

              Nukes = Alice in Wonderland. Or if one likes Superman, call it "Bizarroland". None of the traditional rules apply, nor are there any experts on the subject.

              When a nuke detonates over a city, nobody is a "wise old man". All of us are babies.
              Last edited by Goatboy; 23 Sep 22,, 08:37.

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              • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post

                Whatever happened during the 90's, as you say, pales in significance to the contemporary detonation of a nuclear weapon in anger in a human populated city, regardless of what happened "in the '90s".

                Frankly, I would have assumed this would be assumed, almost as scripture, by interested parties on WAB.

                Nukes = Alice in Wonderland. Or if one likes Superman, call it "Bizarroland". None of the traditional rules apply, nor are there any experts on the subject.

                When a nuke detonates over a city, nobody is a "wise old man". All of us are babies.
                Hehe, you didn't saw our border positions after B 52 bombing during 99. Aside from radiation and speed of destruction, nuclear weapons are not that much different than the conventional ordinance.
                Bear in mind that Putin's goal is to detach Russia from the West and to insure that never again Western influence will set hold in Russia. So far he is doing an excellent job with full support from the West in that regard.

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                • Originally posted by Versus View Post

                  Hehe, you didn't saw our border positions after B 52 bombing during 99. Aside from radiation and speed of destruction, nuclear weapons are not that much different than the conventional ordinance.
                  Bear in mind that Putin's goal is to detach Russia from the West and to insure that never again Western influence will set hold in Russia. So far he is doing an excellent job with full support from the West in that regard.

                  B-52s carpet bombing border regions is a nasty business no doubt, but you mentioned nuking Odessa. I don't see the equivalence.

                  The single incident of nuking Odessa changes the course of human civilization in every country in the world. A conventional strike by B-52's does not.

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                  • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post


                    B-52s carpet bombing border regions is a nasty business no doubt, but you mentioned nuking Odessa. I don't see the equivalence.

                    The single incident of nuking Odessa changes the course of human civilization in every country in the world. A conventional strike by B-52's does not.
                    It does but in different way although I do agree in a way with your point. I didn't say that they will nuke Odessa I said that to me its a likely target. Time will tell.

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                    • What is this I am hearing from the grapevine that Russia is giving the conscripts two weeks of training before sending them to the front. That the recruitment gaol could be as high as one million men. It all sounds rather fantastical.
                      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                      • Rumour mill is starting up the ying yang. At 300K, we're looking at next year before they can be fully utilized and that is assuming the Nov Kilos come through with their contract (which may or maynot include guns and launchers - I'm betting that it does) and the Chinese empties their warehouses of battle dress. The logistics of grabbing 300K for training would take at least 2 weeks and deployment would take another. So, that is 3 weeks just for organization and deployment. So, there is practical zero difference between 30 days and 14 days training in time required to get the troops into the field. At that point, I would state that they'll get the 30 days (minimum required) training.
                        Chimo

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                        • Unconfirmed Russian drone swarm hit Odessa, today at 3:05 pm

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                          • Russia’s unsustainable equipment losses in Ukraine

                            You could pick almost any military in the world — including the U.K., France and Germany — and these losses would exceed their total inventories.

                            According to the open-source database Oryx, Russia has lost 1,183 tanks and 1,304 infantry fighting vehicles since its invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24. Even more extraordinary is that Ukraine has captured a good percentage of them: 389 tanks and 415 infantry fighting vehicles, many of which, in both categories, have already been repurposed for combat against their former owners. These numbers are just the Russian losses that have been visually confirmed; the actual figures are probably much higher.

                            Ukraine has lost equipment, too, but not nearly as much, owing to its relative lack of hardware, careful protection of what it does possess, and the defensive nature of its war thus far: 1,627 pieces, including 267 tanks and 244 infantry fighting vehicles, as per Oryx.


                            A Ukrainian national guard serviceman stands atop a destroyed Russian tank in the Kharkiv region. (AP/Leo Correa)

                            On the face of it, Russian losses are unsustainable. But even more extraordinary is that its “elite” units are hemorrhaging the most materiel. After Ukraine’s Kharkiv counteroffensive, in which Kyiv is estimated to have retaken as many as 3,500 square miles, the 4th Guards Tank Division lost nearly 100 of its T-80U tanks. (The 4th Guards Tank Division is the only unit that operates this model.)

                            Russia is losing proportionally more of its more modern than its older tank models. For example, the T-72B3 — dating from 2010 — and T-72B3 Obr. 2016 — dating from 2016 — are two of the most common tanks lost.

                            We also know that Russia’s losses are burning through its reserve vehicles. Very old T-62M tanks have been increasingly appearing, as Russia runs out of newer, more capable tanks. Using these tanks will also exacerbate the Kremlin’s manpower shortages: The T-62 does not feature an autoloader, which automatically loads shells into the main gun, unlike more modern Russian types, so it needs a four-man crew, compared to the three-man crews required by T-72, T-80, or T-90 models.


                            Ukrainian servicemen work on a tank abandoned by Russian troops during their retreat. (Sergey Bobok/AFP via Getty Images)

                            Significantly, the Ukrainians have captured more tanks than they have lost, according to visually confirmed data from Oryx.

                            Since Ukraine is a former Soviet bloc state, its soldiers also have the advantage of familiarity with the operation of used Russian tanks, meaning that Ukrainian crews can often just repaint them and start using them immediately.

                            Of course, some captured Russian vehicles are easier to repurpose than others; some tanks are abandoned in near-perfect condition, while others are damaged beyond repair.

                            The Ukrainian “Independence Day” parade in Kyiv featured numerous captured Russian tanks that appeared outwardly to be in working condition but had extensive damage to their engines or internal mechanics. Many of the T-80 tanks that were captured by the Ukrainians in the early days of the war apparently simply ran out of fuel. Not only is their turbine engine extremely thirsty, but driving through the rasputitsa — the heavy mud that caked Ukraine at the start of the war — lowers fuel economy even further. Many crews had to abandon their vehicles and retreat when Russia’s straining logistics corps failed to keep them supplied.


                            People walk around destroyed Russian military vehicles installed in downtown Kyiv, Ukraine, Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2022. (AP Photo/Evgeniy Maloletka)

                            Even badly damaged armored vehicles, however, can be a useful source of spare parts, and Ukrainian soldiers also strip any working machine guns from such vehicles to use as infantry weapons. There have been many instances of Ukrainian soldiers taking captured Russian vehicles and upgrading them themselves; for example, adding thermal sights, extra armor and even Starlink satellite internet to captured BTR-82 armored personnel carriers, or by bolting an MT-12 anti-tank gun to the roof of a captured MT-LB armored personnel carrier, turning it into a makeshift but effective tank destroyer. They have also been taking components from destroyed Russian vehicles, such as BM-21 Grad multiple rocket launchers, and adding them to civilian pickup trucks to create lightly armed but highly mobile rocket-launching vehicles.

                            Russia’s sophisticated vehicles will be difficult to replace, given Western import restrictions. The Russian T-72B3 uses a “Catherine” thermal imaging system made by the French multinational defense contractor Thales. Russia imported these systems because it does not have the capability to build them domestically and because few other sources of this sophisticated equipment are available. China — notionally Russia’s ally — has scaled back the export of microprocessors necessary for Russia’s newer missiles, almost certainly because of the fear of secondary sanctions if it is seen to be feeding Putin’s war machine.


                            A destroyed Russian MT-LB armored personnel carrier burning in a field on the outskirts of Izium, Ukraine. (Juan Barreto/AFP via Getty Images)

                            The Ukrainians have also captured a large number of sophisticated Russian electronic warfare systems. These will not only be of interest to Ukraine’s Western partners (especially the United States), but studying these systems may help the Ukrainians to counteract Russian electronic warfare efforts more effectively. These systems could also be turned back against their original owners once the Ukrainians have studied them. Again, most modern Russian equipment will operate in ways that are familiar to Ukrainian military officers used to operating ex-Soviet and Russian military equipment.

                            In the air, Russia has not fared much better, losing significant numbers of its most sophisticated and notionally most capable fixed and rotary-wing platforms. According to Oryx, at least 12 Sukhoi Su-34 strike aircraft have been destroyed. Many of these were shot down by portable anti-air systems, as Russia’s lack of precision-guided munitions has forced their aircraft to fly low and drop “dumb,” unguided bombs, bringing them into the range of these shoulder-launched, short-range, surface-to-air missiles. They’ve also lost at least 16 Ka-52 “Alligator” attack helicopters, their most sophisticated and most recent rotary-wing aircraft.
                            ___________
                            He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybodys personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.

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                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Rumour mill is starting up the ying yang. At 300K, we're looking at next year before they can be fully utilized and that is assuming the Nov Kilos come through with their contract (which may or maynot include guns and launchers - I'm betting that it does) and the Chinese empties their warehouses of battle dress. The logistics of grabbing 300K for training would take at least 2 weeks and deployment would take another. So, that is 3 weeks just for organization and deployment. So, there is practical zero difference between 30 days and 14 days training in time required to get the troops into the field. At that point, I would state that they'll get the 30 days (minimum required) training.
                              If the Russkis have issues with C2 and logistics with “professional” troops, can’t imagine the fun the surviving officers are gonna have with this bunch.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                Rumour mill is starting up the ying yang. At 300K, we're looking at next year before they can be fully utilized and that is assuming the Nov Kilos come through with their contract (which may or maynot include guns and launchers - I'm betting that it does) and the Chinese empties their warehouses of battle dress. The logistics of grabbing 300K for training would take at least 2 weeks and deployment would take another. So, that is 3 weeks just for organization and deployment. So, there is practical zero difference between 30 days and 14 days training in time required to get the troops into the field. At that point, I would state that they'll get the 30 days (minimum required) training.
                                I'm sure most all of those 3000,000, if it can be believed, are just absolutely thrilled about all this which I seriously doubt. This will really improve the morale of those up front now. When you get down to it how many of this new group want to go as they are really draftees now. I'm 23 trying to finish my courses and I have nothing against a 23 year old Ukranian trying to finish their courses and get on with their lives. So forth and so on all because of one man. They are not going to be as effective at all.

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