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  • Multinational mission to train Ukrainian troops hits major milestone

    The Ukrainians are getting basic training far superior to what Russian soldiers receive, says expert

    The allied effort to train Ukrainian recruits accomplished a major achievement this week when Ukraine confirmed 5,000 of its troops had been put through the British-led program.

    The General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces made the declaration in a Facebook post Wednesday — just days after the country's military won a lightning swift victory that forced the Russian Army into a hastily-organized retreat in the northeast of Ukraine.

    The achievement, just months after its inception, is "quite, quite significant," said one defence expert.

    "It's almost a brigade's worth of personnel," said Sean Maloney, a professor of history at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., who added those soldiers might also help increase the training capacity within Ukraine itself, creating a multiplying effect.

    "If they're training the trainer, they will go back and train people in Ukraine."

    The initiative was announced last June by former British prime minister Boris Johnson and involves more than a thousand British soldiers from the 11th Security Force Assistance Brigade, a unit that concentrates on training foreign militaries.

    Canada has sent roughly 225 troops, including instructors. The Netherlands and New Zealand are also contributing trainers.

    The Ukrainian recruits are flown to the U.K. on British military planes. There they receive instruction at four different bases, including a major training centre in Kent where urban combat is taught.

    The three-week course covers basic offensive and defensive combat tactics, weapons handling, medical training, engineering and mine clearing, and an introduction to the laws of war.

    Aside from the recruit training, Britain has instructed seasoned Ukrainian soldiers in the use of some sophisticated weapons systems, such as the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) units allied countries have been providing.

    In its online post, Ukraine's general staff said it is hoping to expand the U.K.-based instruction beyond recruits to include training for current junior officers, whose leadership is considered to be the backbone of an army.

    Maloney said the basic training is a step above the instruction Russian troops are getting because western soldiers are taught what's known as "combined arms tactics" involving ground troops, tanks, artillery and aircraft.

    "It will be a more sophisticated approach to manoeuvre warfare, probably enabled with a variety of other technologies," Maloney said.

    The withdrawal of Russian troops in areas east and southeast of Kharkiv, Ukraine's second-largest city, was described as frantic and chaotic by local residents who spoke to international media outlets in the region.

    The swift assaults over the past week have allowed Ukraine's military to recapture hundreds of square kilometres of territory and strategic towns.

    Ukrainian soldiers have also netted dozens of abandoned weapons, including tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

    Maloney said the Russian military has lived off of the myth of the Soviet Red Army for decades. What recent weeks and months have shown, he said, is that Ukraine is facing a "devolved Russian Army" crippled by years of "corruption, opportunism and political interference."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment


    • Back on topic. Perun's latest is out for those who don't follow him (assuming there is anyone here who doesn't follow him of course). It's his usual excellent work, this time looking at the Kherosn and Kharkiv offensives.
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

      Comment


      • Plenty of places to talk about W.WII elsewhere. Hope this shit stops.

        Ryan Evans and Michael Kofman offer thoughts on the offensive. Good listening-

        War On The Rocks

        Kharkiv offensive made with a minimal commitment of troops (approx 4-5 brigades-Jomini's latest map concurs) but Kherson very much a real offensive too...adjusted to a different tempo, facing better troops and with a different (larger?) intent.

        I really think we'll see one more push from the Zaporozhe area southward toward Melitopol, lock down on the eastern shoulder of the attack and turn west toward Kherson with the western shoulder, putting Ukraine on the east bank of the Dnieper with, guess who, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

        God, I sure hope so.

        ISW Sept. 17, 2022

        Using sexual criminals to fight their war while abducting Ukrainian children. Sheer, unmitigated evil.

        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Monash View Post
          Back on topic. Perun's latest is out for those who don't follow him (assuming there is anyone here who doesn't follow him of course). It's his usual excellent work, this time looking at the Kherosn and Kharkiv offensives.
          Yes. His bit on the destruction of the 1st Guards was fun. Its remarkable to think that 80 years ago the first iteration of that unit was stomping the Heer in Ukraine. This version just got beat up by a nation a third the size of Russia that has no experience of armoured & maneuver warfare and had to rebuild its army in a few months. Even more remarkable, gear left in perfect working order. Not your grandad's 1st Guards.

          Hopefully the Ukranians will soon surround Lyman. It is too much to hope they have another force ready to strike somewhere else, but taking more ground in the north would be great.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

          Comment


          • Originally posted by S2 View Post
            Plenty of places to talk about W.WII elsewhere. Hope this shit stops.

            Ryan Evans and Michael Kofman offer thoughts on the offensive. Good listening-

            War On The Rocks

            Kharkiv offensive made with a minimal commitment of troops (approx 4-5 brigades-Jomini's latest map concurs) but Kherson very much a real offensive too...adjusted to a different tempo, facing better troops and with a different (larger?) intent.

            I really think we'll see one more push from the Zaporozhe area southward toward Melitopol, lock down on the eastern shoulder of the attack and turn west toward Kherson with the western shoulder, putting Ukraine on the east bank of the Dnieper with, guess who, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

            God, I sure hope so.

            ISW Sept. 17, 2022

            Using sexual criminals to fight their war while abducting Ukrainian children. Sheer, unmitigated evil.
            That would be nice. Trap tens of thousands of Russian troops and their gear and wait for the mass panic. Taking Melitopol could easily collapse everything west of Donetsk. Lots of people running toward Crimea with what they can carry, lots of people trying to swim the Dnipr.

            I wasn't sure how well Ukraine would adapt to the switch to offence. Doing a bang up job so far.
            sigpic

            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

              Yes. His bit on the destruction of the 1st Guards was fun. Its remarkable to think that 80 years ago the first iteration of that unit was stomping the Heer in Ukraine. This version just got beat up by a nation a third the size of Russia that has no experience of armoured & maneuver warfare and had to rebuild its army in a few months. Even more remarkable, gear left in perfect working order. Not your grandad's 1st Guards.

              Hopefully the Ukranians will soon surround Lyman. It is too much to hope they have another force ready to strike somewhere else, but taking more ground in the north would be great.
              Reading the Institute for the Study of Wars latest update their breakdown for the Donesk sector does seem to indicate that Lyman is a definite prospect with the Ukis' apparently undertaking movements to encircle it from the South and West.
              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Monash View Post

                Reading the Institute for the Study of Wars latest update their breakdown for the Donesk sector does seem to indicate that Lyman is a definite prospect with the Ukis' apparently undertaking movements to encircle it from the South and West.
                That would be great news. Opening up the flanks of the Donetsk/Luhansk area will give the Russians a few more headaches.
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

                  That would be great news. Opening up the flanks of the Donetsk/Luhansk area will give the Russians a few more headaches.
                  The only medium to long term problem I see (and the professionals here can by all means prove me wrong) is as follows. The more successful the Ukrainians are with their offensives in the south and east the more two issues arise;

                  1) It allows the Russians (provided they have the nous) to react accordingly & shorten their lines back into Donsesk and Luhansk. Which means of course that the farther the Ukrainians advance the more Russian defensive firepower is concentrated as their lines shorten.

                  2) The further south/east the Ukrainians advance the more of their own rear area's are exposed to a potential counterattack east across the border from Russia (assuming of course the Russian's still have the offensive mass to do so).

                  Basically the overall tactical situation reverses. The Ukrainian lines become longer as they advance and the Russian lines (inside Ukraine) become shorter with Ukraine increasingly exposing its eastern flank as it advances. I realize ALL armies on the offensive eventually face the same dilemma and that this viewpoint is very simplistic, also assuming for instance (as seems increasingly unlikely ) that Russia would be able to form up a credible assault force on it's eastern border with Ukraine even as Ukraine manages to push Russia out of the Donbass but in the end the geometry doesn't lie!
                  Last edited by Monash; 18 Sep 22,, 13:26.
                  If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                  Comment


                  • Kharkiv offensive made with a minimal commitment of troops (approx 4-5 brigades-Jomini's latest map concurs) but Kherson very much a real offensive too...adjusted to a different tempo, facing better troops and with a different (larger?) intent.
                    Kherson looks like an Ukrainian attempt to both logistically attrite and slowly corrode the morale of the Russians. Reports and visual evidence of Russians fighting presumably other Russians inside Kherson seem to bear this out.

                    Would be …interesting…if a Zaporozhe offensive kicked off right when Russian positions in Kherson collapsed. Would be perfect conditions for replicating Kharkiv again, only with far more Russians in the general vicinity.

                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                      Plenty of places to talk about W.WII elsewhere. Hope this shit stops.
                      Apologies for the delay, been away from home since last week. I've moved the WWII posts to a new thread here
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • I can't believe Kherson is an attempt at attrition. There's one big problem with that assumption. The Russians have more and they've stockpiled more. The Ukrainians will burn through men, machine, and material if this is their goal for extremely little gain. They're not trading one for one.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • Ukrainians have considerable fire superiority on the western side of the Dnipro, because the Russian log train is funneled into easily targetable crossings. Battlefield geometry is a salient for the Russians too, so Ukrainians can concentrate fires easier too.

                          If the Russians withdrew to the other side of the Dnipro, I would agree that attrition warfare doesn’t seem like a good idea.

                          As it is, still looks like the Ukrainians are using Kherson to pin a significant Russian force down.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            I can't believe Kherson is an attempt at attrition. There's one big problem with that assumption. The Russians have more and they've stockpiled more. The Ukrainians will burn through men, machine, and material if this is their goal for extremely little gain. They're not trading one for one.
                            The Ukrainians do have more of one thing. Manpower, particularity infantry and from recent accounts increasingly better trained and motivated ones at that. Can't remember where I saw of heard it Perun perhaps? But reportedly (yes I know, grain of salt taken) posters were put up in towns somewhere in the southern Obalsts of Russia around the Black Sea recruiting for their naval infantry service and then offering a chance to fight after 10 days basic training. 10 days! For marines! These are one of Russia's best fighting formations!
                            Last edited by Monash; 19 Sep 22,, 08:09.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • ...The Ukrainians will burn through men, machine, and material if this is their goal for extremely little gain."

                              Colonel,

                              Little gain? There's, instead, been considerable strategic gain. What remains of Russia's best troops are in the south and on the wrong side of a big river with diminishing access to high through-put transit points for supplies, ammunition and to escape-if need be. Further, this offensive has forestalled Russia's attempts at referendums in Kherson. By itself, that is a significant strategic/political victory. Meanwhile, troops that might have prevented any opportunities in Kharkiv/Izyum instead found themselves removed to Kherson and Donetsk/Bakhmut.

                              BTW, is there any more strategic/operationally pointless exercise than Bakhmut at this point? Entirely beside the point in the greater scheme of things.

                              Ukraine has not experienced anywhere near the casualties incurred earlier this summer in Sieverodonetsk/Lyschansk to accomplish their present Kherson regional gains. Further, superior targeting intelligence and more accurate ammunition means the Ukrainians have achieved a superior bang for the buck. I don't sense Ukraine limited by resources or manpower. Finally, maneuver operations in Kherson have been extremely circumspect, primarily designed to maintain consistent pressure while limiting needless exposure to Russian fires. No Ukrainian is recklessly sticking their neck out. So Ukraine has preserved the combat power of their forces in Kherson to a much greater degree.

                              Make no mistake. Russia is not in a very enviable position and the Cavalry are not on the horizon.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                              Comment


                              • But it should not be an attrition battle. It will be at best a pyrrhic victory. I don't doubt that there is a lot of strategic gain, but I cannot see the Ukrainians bleeding men and machine to achieve it. Thus far the Ukrainians have been fighting smart, not hard. Attrition is out of character for them. The Ukrainians are setting up something, but their aim isn't attrition. I more than think they're setting KZs for concentrated Russian lines.
                                Chimo

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