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  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    I am interested in seeing if any of this package includes M88A2s.
    8 M88's are going
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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    • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

      Not to mention a metric fuck ton of spare parts and some tech reps too.

      I am interested in seeing if any of this package includes M88A2s.
      Is the M88 up to the task of recovering Giants like M1 and Leo2?
      in the army this is a task for the Büffel armored recovery vehicle, this is the 3rd armored recovery vehicle model, the M88 was the first.






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      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

        In the newest variants they are practically interchangeable. I would say neither is measurably better than the other.

        The bigest hurdle...besides logistics...for the Ukrainians is the move from a 3 man to a 4 man crew. Both Leos and M1s use a crew member as a loader while all the current Ukrainian tanks have autoloaders. A 4 man crew can also be faster at reloading than the autoloader. The US Army standard for a tank crew on the first engagement is 3 rounds in 12 seconds. That's the base line. Experienced crews are better. And a 4 man crew allows the various workload across another crew member...maintenance, security, cleaning, etc.

        The Leo can snorkel across a body of water 3 meters deep which the M1 can't. But having driven and M113 & M2 Bradley during swimming I want nothing to do with that capability!

        Regardless, the Ukrainians are getting weapon systems much more capable than anything the current combatants have.

        But the Leopard2 doesn't swim, it just cruises through underwater. but whether you get the appropriate equipment for it is another question.
        And Germany donates, as i understand, Leopard 2A6, the Poles perhaps Leopard 2A4 or Leopard 2Pol which is an A5-Version with another FCS and better sights etc.. Norway has the Leopard 2A4 version but with their own radio system.
        Every other country that donates Leopard 2 tanks will have their own version, which is mostly in line with the standard Bundeswehr versions (A4, A5, A6, A6M, A7) but differs in some areas (fire control system) resulting in the need for different training.

        I think, there are NATO-Standards, but every country, which operates their own Version had to train the specific topics...




        Last edited by Tarond; 25 Jan 23,, 20:43.

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        • Originally posted by Tarond View Post

          Is the M88 up to the task of recovering Giants like M1 and Leo2?
          in the army this is a task for the Büffel armored recovery vehicle, this is the 3rd armored recovery vehicle model, the M88 was the first.
          The M88A2 was built intentionally to handle the M1A2. I have seen a single M88A2 recover an M1A1 out of deep mud. It can more than handle the Leo2. And all the rigging gear for towing is NATO standard.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • Originally posted by Tarond View Post
            But the Leopard2 doesn't float, it just cruises through underwater. but whether you get the appropriate equipment for it is another question.
            My point was this ability is grossly overrated by amateurs. I can kill your armor very easily when it is snorkeling...simple artillery fire will rupture seals and flooding ensues. This was our standard tactic to handle Soviet tanks snorkeling.

            And as for training on the various models...once you get one variant it is pretty easy to transfer to a different mark with some minor amount of training. The best move is to pure fleet.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

              8 M88's are going
              Thanks, Joe.

              Where did you see that?
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                The last good planes at the boneyard were turned into QF-16s. And by good I mean they had around 300 hours left on their airframes.

                The last new F-16 was delivered to the Air Force in 2005
                Maybe a hand over from F-16s from active squadrons that are converting to F-35s?
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

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                • Buck,

                  The numbers provided would be best suited for training and integration. If the Ukrainians don't want to waste our time and their's then they'll carefully train and evaluate capabilities before introducing...hopefully to best effect. Premature entry of Leos, Abrams or Challenger to poor effect will be HIGHLY counter-productive. I'm hoping that, as equipment is identified and made available, Ukraine will begin rotating battalion/brigade sets of troops into Poland where they might FTX/LFX before going downrange.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                    The last good planes at the boneyard were turned into QF-16s. And by good I mean they had around 300 hours left on their airframes.

                    The last new F-16 was delivered to the Air Force in 2005
                    There's a possibility that (some of?) F-16s from the Netherlands going that way. No idea on what condition they are.

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                    • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                      Buck,

                      The numbers provided would be best suited for training and integration. If the Ukrainians don't want to waste our time and their's then they'll carefully train and evaluate capabilities before introducing...hopefully to best effect. Premature entry of Leos, Abrams or Challenger to poor effect will be HIGHLY counter-productive. I'm hoping that, as equipment is identified and made available, Ukraine will begin rotating battalion/brigade sets of troops into Poland where they might FTX/LFX before going downrange.
                      That sounds like a good plan. I see these first ones as a battalion set they can train on and then operate other ones coming downstream. Also allows maintenance guys get trained as well. Hope we throw in some DSETS.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                        Thanks, Joe.

                        Where did you see that?
                        Sorry about the lack of a source, I was just taking off from O'Hare

                        https://www.defense.gov/News/News-St...ed-to-ukraine/
                        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                          The last good planes at the boneyard were turned into QF-16s. And by good I mean they had around 300 hours left on their airframes.

                          The last new F-16 was delivered to the Air Force in 2005
                          Pigs will fly before it would ever happen, but if there's any around at the very end of their airframe yet, would be nice to see them turned into the biggest kamikaze drone ever. Hand them to the Ukrainians, load up the hard points with as much as they can carry, and fly them into Russian bases. Would be a fitting send off.

                          I'm sure it wouldn't be technically difficult to turn a QF-16 into a kamikaze drone.
                          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                            Sorry about the lack of a source, I was just taking off from O'Hare

                            https://www.defense.gov/News/News-St...ed-to-ukraine/
                            Jet setter you!
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                              Jet setter you!
                              I fell asleep while we were taxiing
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                                The last good planes at the boneyard were turned into QF-16s. And by good I mean they had around 300 hours left on their airframes.

                                The last new F-16 was delivered to the Air Force in 2005
                                There's a couple hundred F-16s still at AMARG, are they all just picked-over hulks?

                                That means the only U.S. F-16s that could go to Ukraine would be current USAF/ANG machines...and they'd have to be stripped of classified stuff just like any U.S. stock Abrams

                                This just sucks all around.
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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