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2014 Peshawar school attack: 141 Dead

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  • Thinking this through, I now weep for Pakistan. The TTP has crossed a line. Pakistan's children are no longer safe. The only obvious answer is that the TTP's children are longer safe. The Pakistani Army will not do what the TTP has done. Go into a school and start shooting. But the children human shields for a TTP platoon in a school yard is not going to stop a Pakistani battery.

    An food and fuel trade into TTP zones? Women and children are going to starve and freeze.

    God bless.
    Chimo

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Ghani's biggest fight will be against Afghan corruption. Taliban is secondary. With corruption there might not even be bullets in the guns paid for or no guns in the hands of soldiers who are getting paid on the books but not actually receiving the pay. This is how Da'ish took over Iraq.
      True but Ghani had a the top priority of developing relations with Pakistan unlike karzai.Unlike karzai,Ghani is a well educated person and does know that you can replace friends but not neighbours.So the only choice left is to have Greater relations with the neighbour.Karzai was playing at the hand of indians and Ghani does know that india only worry about development in Afghanistan to counter Pakistan influence,which indirectly will also involve Pakistani efforts to counter india in afghanistan leading to the destruction of Afghanistan and its common people.

      So Dr Ashraf Ghani,is a smart man and is the reason why he declined the request for arms from india and rather requested China,and until now china has already delivered arms upto 1Million dollars

      Comment


      • Originally posted by barangai View Post
        True but Ghani had a the top priority of developing relations with Pakistan unlike karzai.Unlike karzai,Ghani is a well educated person and does know that you can replace friends but not neighbours.So the only choice left is to have Greater relations with the neighbour.Karzai was playing at the hand of indians and Ghani does know that india only worry about development in Afghanistan to counter Pakistan influence,which indirectly will also involve Pakistani efforts to counter india in afghanistan leading to the destruction of Afghanistan and its common people.
        Sort out your mil-to-mil. Otherwise ttp & taliban are going to be running across the border and getting away. Who will chase them ?

        All these complaints about other side giving sanctuary to your terrorists does not wash.

        Originally posted by barangai View Post
        So Dr Ashraf Ghani,is a smart man and is the reason why he declined the request for arms from india and rather requested China,and until now china has already delivered arms upto 1Million dollars
        He did not decline the request but was unhappy with India's offer. He's free to choose.

        This isn't surprising as the IA itself is waiting to get arms itself despite having MoD approval since 2009 (!) If the present administration clears up this backlog then maybe India can be more forthcoming to Afghan requirements.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Dec 14,, 15:43.

        Comment


        • Karzai was playing at the hand of indians and Ghani does know that india only worry about development in Afghanistan to counter Pakistan influence,which indirectly will also involve Pakistani efforts to counter india in afghanistan leading to the destruction of Afghanistan and its common people.
          And if the blow back of supporting terrorists leads to the chickens coming home to roost such as a school or two inside being machine gunned in Pakistan then so be it - "strategic depth" is too valuable.
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

          Comment


          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
            Unless Paksitan is willing to fight a battle with a WWII level of destruction and economic ruin you are not going to break the Pashtuns. You might force them over the border into Afghanistan, but they will be back. You only other option is to appease them, but as you've already discovered appeasement doesn't buy peace, it just rents it for a awhile.And unlike America, you can't just pull out and leave- but you'll wish you could.
            The war is not with 'all Pashtun', it never has been - at best, if you really wanted to pigeonhole the people this war is being fought against, you could argue that this is a war against certain 'Pashtun tribes of FATA'. The Pashtun ethnic group, both tribal and settled, has itself suffered the most human and economic damage at the hands of their fellow 'Pashtun' Taliban, so, theoretically, the concept of Pashtunwali as you and some other commentators see it would work against the Taliban and associated groups more than it would against the Pakistani military.

            Where the theory fails is:

            (i) the Pakistani military and government will always be perceived as the 'other' in contrast to the local tribal thug/warlord leading the local TTP Chapter

            (ii) the Pakistani military is not going to engage in a drive to recruit the relatives of those killed by the Taliban and brainwash them into believing that they can achieve 'instant gratification/revenge' (and the assorted virgins and/or raisins) by massacring innocents in crowded bazaars, schools and sporting events.

            (iii) the State has abdicated its responsibilities for too long in the tribal areas and made the local populace dependent upon the Taliban for some semblance of order and economic stability - so not only is the Pakistani military/government the 'other' demographically, it is also threatening the 'way of life' (relatively lucrative for many) that the locals have come to depend on. Given the above, one can begin to understand how strong the Taliban support base (willing, coerced and brainwashed) is - the GOC for the North Waziristan operation (a Pakhtun himself) had some very interesting (and angry) comments about the extent of local facilitation and support for the Taliban/extremist networks.

            The State just can't compete with that kind of 'return' in the short term, but the fact of the matter is that the Taliban continue to kill many magnitudes more innocents than the State, and that the mass displacement of many from the Tribal areas (a policy criticized by many) has in fact cut off the locals from economic and security dependency on the Taliban/extremists and made them pay a heavy material cost for their facilitation and support of the Taliban. Of course the long term success of the policy (weaning the locals of the TTP/extremist teat) is contingent on the usual 'reconstruction, rehabilitation and development' phases that are supposed to follow the military 'sweep' of the region, but Swat has shown that it can be done, though it will be harder in FATA.

            Back to the attack and its 'ethnic dimensions' and/or potential of 'ethnic tensions' in the aftermath - had the TTP carried out this attack on a military school in Punjab, the government and military response would probably have been the same, but the narrative could have been distorted into one of a 'Punjabi government and military wantonly massacring Pashtun as revenge for Punjabi children being killed'. But this attack was in an ancient Pashtun city that is the heart of the Pashtun province in Pakistan, a city that has already seen a lot of Pashtun blood being spilled by the same TTP terrorists. The question Pakistanis are asking now is not whether the 'Punjabi Establishment is overreacting against the Pashtun in anger', but why it took so long to go after them.

            The TTP may have miscalculated here (assuming they wanted to sow ethnic rifts to cause greater destabilization in the country) - they could have carried out the attack in Punjab and made this a Punjabi vs Pashtun issue, especially given the fact that they must have known that the government (lead by a Punjabi leadership) and military would increase the tempo of kinetic operations in the aftermath, which would in turn play into a TTP narrative of 'Punjabi atrocities against the Pashtun' (was the date of the Peshawar school attack, the same date as the loss of East Pakistan, a coincidence?). The TTP could still carry out attacks on soft targets in Punjab, but the die has been cast and the national narrative has solidified into one of 'Pakistanis against the TTP' instead of 'Punjabis vs the Pashtun'.

            On a side note, while I expect to see some progress in terms of policy reforms, I am not convinced that the current government has the courage for any far reaching changes such as reforms and accountability of the Madrassas, mosques/various other religious organizations, curriculum, laws legitimizing intolerance and hatred etc. A complete implementation of the existing proposals on a national counter-terrorism body alone would be a significant step.
            Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 24 Dec 14,, 05:00.
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

            Comment


            • Najam Sethi has consistently been one of the most astute observers of Pakistani politics and society. His dispassionate analysis brings out the hypocrisy and futility of some of the actions



              For those who do not understand Urdu, the followings points stand out
              1. Political parties across spectrum (except for MQM, PPP and ANP who have always been consistently opposed), as well as the military leadership of the past 14 years (Musharraf + Kiyani) have at various times expressed support for the Taliban. They are doing a volte face now, especially after gauging the public mood. These parties should be followed closely to ensure that they do not change their stance after the public anger dies down
              2. Executions as an instrument of deterrence are useless. What happens when you execute failed suicide bombers? You make them martyrs, on the way to get the jannati hoors (celestial virgins)
              3. There has been talks about a National action plan. This is also not very likely. The political parties have been at it for 9 months, with nothing to show for it. The only party competent enough to handle this is the military and they will not share anything with the politicians. They do not trust the politicians to keep any action plan a secret
              4. To combat terrorism effectively the existing law and the courts have to be strengthened. The existing Ant Terorrism Courts have been useless in actual convictions, leading the military to take a no-prisoners approach during their Ops


              All in all, lots of activity, but very little in the way of meaningful and sustainable ones
              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                theoretically, the concept of Pashtunwali as you and some other commentators see it would work against the Taliban and associated groups more than it would against the Pakistani military.
                Only if you assume that TTP atrocities have been worse than that of the Pakistani army in FATA and Swat. Nobody really knows. Its a case of perceptions, and its the perceptions of the tribes that matter most.

                TTP commander Omar Mansoor has shown no remorse for the army school massacre and has threatened that even more children of Pakistani army personal would be killed: Pakistan Taliban Vows More Killings of Military Children - WSJ

                Its reports like these below, which go back several years and continue today, that give context to what and why Omar has threatened Pakistan as seen above:

                Pakistani Army Accused of Waziristan Killings of Civilians - WSJ
                Pakistan's IDPs reach record one million - Human Rights - Al Jazeera English
                'The Hands of Cruelty:' Abuses by Armed Forces and Taliban in Pakistan
                BBC News - Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'
                BBC News - Pakistan army accused of extrajudicial killings in Swat
                Pakistani army accused of killing 55 civilians | World news | The Guardian

                Omar's position is clearly way beyond 'jihad' against the Pakistani state. Like zraver has pointed out, his position is no doubt driven by his tribal-cultural code to take revenge against what he, and surely many among his clan and other Pashtun tribes, now perceive to be a Pakistani war on their people, not just on the TTP as rebels. This is the basis of where things can be seen to be now beyond a 'jihad' against the Pakistani state, and is moving towards an ethnic war. The attack on the Indo-Pak border crossing last month can also be seen in this light as being beyond 'jihad'. It was an attack that served no military or sectarian cause. It was a revenge attack that clearly carried ethnic overtones: TTP splinter groups claim Wagah attack; 60 dead - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                  Only if you assume that TTP atrocities have been worse than that of the Pakistani army in FATA and Swat. Nobody really knows. Its a case of perceptions, and its the perceptions of the tribes that matter most.
                  Any analysis of the recorded claims (we can limit these to reporting by media outlets for the purposes of consistency) of civilian casualties at the hands of the Pakistani military vs the TTP/associated extremists pretty clearly illustrates that TTP atrocities far outweigh any claimed civilian casualties at the hands of the military.

                  'Perception' is of course key, which is why I argued in my earlier post that State was at a disadvantage (irrespective of the fact that civilian casualties at the hands of the militants far outweighed civilian casualties at the hands of the military) by virtue of being the 'other' in the Tribal areas. The need to overcome that disadvantage was also why I argued that the military policy of displacing the local tribes who had vested interests in supporting the Taliban was in fact the correct one because it provided the opportunity to wean the non-Taliban tribesmen away from the TTP teat. That argument is borne out when one compares the comments and accounts from the IDP's, immediately after they were displaced, with their views and attitudes a couple of months later.

                  Omar's position is clearly way beyond 'jihad' against the Pakistani state.
                  Omar can take whatever position he wants while on the run, driven out of his support base. His ability to mold tribal perceptions in any significant manner (to bolster support for his policies and actions) required him to have a degree of access and control over the local populace which he/TTP no longer exercises.
                  ... and surely many among his clan and other Pashtun tribes, now perceive to be a Pakistani war on their people, not just on the TTP as rebels.
                  This claim is simply not borne out by the attitudes and views expressed by the IDP's from FATA.
                  This is the basis of where things can be seen to be now beyond a 'jihad' against the Pakistani state, and is moving towards an ethnic war. The attack on the Indo-Pak border crossing last month can also be seen in this light as being beyond 'jihad'. It was an attack that served no military or sectarian cause. It was a revenge attack that clearly carried ethnic overtones: TTP splinter groups claim Wagah attack; 60 dead - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
                  The attack at Wagah was nothing more than yet another cowardly and deliberate attack on a soft target, like many other cowardly and deliberate terrorist attacks in public places elsewhere in Pakistan.

                  The TTP didn't cast the attack in ethnic overtones, and the attack in Peshawar struck in the heartland of the Pashtun resulting in national outrage demands for revenge across ethnic lines, so I am curious about what exactly is driving your insistent claims that 'the war against the TTP is moving towards and ethnic war'? The verifiable facts on the ground certainly don't bear it out.
                  Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 24 Dec 14,, 22:43.
                  Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                  https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    Any analysis of the recorded claims
                    An analysis of shit all proves one fucking thing. You and your country got not fucking clue!

                    The Russians responded by unleashing the Cossaks in Chechnya. Who are you going to unleash?
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 25 Dec 14,, 08:39.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      An analysis of shit all proves one fucking thing.
                      I wasn't talking about an 'analysis of shit all', I was talking about an analysis of the recorded claims of civilian casualties at the hands of the Pakistani military vs civilian casualties at the hands of the TTP/Associated groups in the context of the claims made by Zraver and 1980 that the fight against TTP terrorism in Pakistan was becoming an ethnic war.

                      Do you disagree, and if yes, why?
                      The Russians responded by unleashing the Cossaks in Chechnya. Who are you going to unleash?
                      This isn't an ethnic war - the Russians fought their way, we'll fight it ours. Time will tell who/what has/will be unleashed.
                      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                      Comment


                      • If this indeed was a pashtuns vs punjabi than why most of the fatalities due to talibs origin terrorism are in pashtun majority regions?

                        2013

                        Fatalities in Pakistan Region Wise 2013

                        2014

                        Fatalities in Pakistan Region Wise 2014

                        NOTE:Most of the civilian fatalities in Sindh are not due to talibs origin terrorism,but rather local terrorist outfits

                        Comment


                        • Continuing on the subject of 'Pashtunwali' and 'most tribal Pashtun viewing the conflict in an ethnic Pashtun vs Punjabi or Tribal vs rest of Pakistan context', here is an excerpt from a piece highlighting the views of the residents of the village that one of the main Peshawar attack plotters hailed from. Along with highlighting the anger of his community and their condemnation of him and his ilk, what the account suggests is that there was no 'honor driven, glorious revenge' related motivation that drove Umar Naray (or others in his extended family) into joining the TTP and engaging in mass murder, not initially at least, and that locals who have suffered at the hands of the TTP are just as anxious for 'revenge'.

                          An enemy with four names | TNS - The News on Sunday
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by troung View Post
                            And if the blow back of supporting terrorists leads to the chickens coming home to roost such as a school or two inside being machine gunned in Pakistan then so be it - "strategic depth" is too valuable.
                            They're not going to give it up. Because the west & the PA both religiously believe Afghanistan is going to the dogs soon.

                            So the west & others will support their militias in Afghanistan and the PA have to counter it otherwise they might be looking at problems later on. Must have a horse in the race. The idea is support militant politics when the national army is not effective or does not have a monopoly on violence. The militias are more effective than the army. Syria & Iraq are examples in the middle east of this same policy in action. The Paks have sectarianism but its not there to the same extent in Afghanistan. This policy could engender it like it does in Syria & Iraq.

                            Keep them busy fighting each other so they don't have the resources to go beyond their states. Risky. There will be spill over.

                            Who pays the price ?

                            People on both sides of the Durand line and the militant supporters in terms of funds.

                            Both sides have their good & bad militants. The problem is how to get agreement on who is good and bad.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Dec 14,, 01:20.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by barangai View Post
                              Sir,i am pashtun myself from baka khel and i am well aware of the ground realities.i don't want to argue further whether this is a pashtun vs punjabi or else as only the passage of time will prove that i was right

                              We are all united against talibs.Sir i might sound optimistic to you but we are at the edge of defeating talibs and talibanism.
                              You are not on the edge of defeating anything(terrorists seems to be having upper hand overall specially with their below the belt attacks) unless you remove the Good/Bad terrorists theory.You started Taliban and now you gotta suffer and have to pay some serious price.

                              Originally posted by ajhax View Post
                              Looks like the government is still confused on how to deal with terrorism.

                              Militants not dangerous to Pakistan should not be targeted: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

                              But there has been a sort of retraction from the foreign office itself.

                              Sartaj Aziz statement on militant groups taken out of context: FO - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
                              There is a reason why no one trusts Pakistan.They are getting beaten in their own game and web of lies.

                              So as expected Pakistan keeps the Good/Bad terrorist definition intact and contradicted it's own statement given regarding this after hundred kids were butchered.The statement of Sharif was just a hogwash for local and international people.

                              This was expected since the same terrorists who killed kids are always going to be the "assets".The life of kids/common people is much smaller in terms of the "bigger aim".

                              Originally posted by barangai View Post
                              I must admit that,Dr Ashraf Ghani is perhaps not the best for Afghanistan but perhaps the best president in the region.He's honest and doesn't want to play double games at the hand of other neighbours such as India.

                              I hope that we will also help Afghanistan in eliminating Haqqani Group and to lead a peace deal with Quetta shura as Dr Ashraf Ghani has wished for

                              Afghan forces launch operation in areas bordering Pakistan - World - DAWN.COM
                              You always want Afganistan as your slave backyard and it has backfired in the long run.You "helped" Afganistan by pushing it towards Talibanization.It's actually Pakistan responsible for the state of Afganistan today and the whole region. Afgans(I know many at least) hates Pakistan today the way they ruined their country.

                              Originally posted by barangai View Post
                              The airstrikes are made in Khyber agency and NW.They are already evacuated with upto 0.4Million IDPs from Khyber agency and upto 1.1Million IDPs from NW.You can watch the videos of NW and you won't spot any single civilian though alot of talibs can be spotted

                              Beside,Zaki ur Rehman is already arrested again.please keep yourself updated,thanks
                              Your "Court" seems like a joke since he gets arrested then gets bail then free then gets arrested.Seems like the whole pakistani establishment(Army/ISI/Govt/Court/Terrorists) is on the same page when comes to supporting GOOD TERRORISTS.

                              Keep yourself updated.

                              Mumbai attack 'mastermind' detained again - South Asia - Al Jazeera English
                              Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi bail: Angry Centre summons Pakistan envoy to New Delhi : India, News - India Today

                              Indian broadcaster NDTV reported on Tuesday that Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi has been detained for the second time in Pakistan a day after he was granted bail by an Islamabad court.
                              Last edited by Batista; 30 Dec 14,, 10:19.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                                Only if you assume that TTP atrocities have been worse than that of the Pakistani army in FATA and Swat. Nobody really knows. Its a case of perceptions, and its the perceptions of the tribes that matter most.

                                TTP commander Omar Mansoor has shown no remorse for the army school massacre and has threatened that even more children of Pakistani army personal would be killed: Pakistan Taliban Vows More Killings of Military Children - WSJ

                                Its reports like these below, which go back several years and continue today, that give context to what and why Omar has threatened Pakistan as seen above:

                                Pakistani Army Accused of Waziristan Killings of Civilians - WSJ
                                Pakistan's IDPs reach record one million - Human Rights - Al Jazeera English
                                'The Hands of Cruelty:' Abuses by Armed Forces and Taliban in Pakistan
                                BBC News - Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'
                                BBC News - Pakistan army accused of extrajudicial killings in Swat
                                Pakistani army accused of killing 55 civilians | World news | The Guardian

                                Omar's position is clearly way beyond 'jihad' against the Pakistani state. Like zraver has pointed out, his position is no doubt driven by his tribal-cultural code to take revenge against what he, and surely many among his clan and other Pashtun tribes, now perceive to be a Pakistani war on their people, not just on the TTP as rebels. This is the basis of where things can be seen to be now beyond a 'jihad' against the Pakistani state, and is moving towards an ethnic war. The attack on the Indo-Pak border crossing last month can also be seen in this light as being beyond 'jihad'. It was an attack that served no military or sectarian cause. It was a revenge attack that clearly carried ethnic overtones: TTP splinter groups claim Wagah attack; 60 dead - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
                                Add 1 to 3 Million Genocide of Bangladeshis and 200,000+ Rapes by the Pak Army.The result is Bangladesh is a free country and going better than Pakistan today.

                                Overall 60,000+ killings due to WOT in Pakistan and mostly civilians... all due to Pak Army.

                                Add 50,000+ killings of Kashmiris all due to Pak Army.

                                Add 10,000+ killings of Baloch&Sindhis by Pak Army.Freedom struggle going on again like Bangladesh.

                                Add 3000 American civilians died in 9/11 executed by Osama and fully supported by Pak Army.

                                Add 15,000+ killings due to WOT(including 10,000 Afgan soldiers + 2300 Americans soldiers)

                                So... now you see who we are dealing with? A Terrorist State called Pakistan.

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