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  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    However you want to describe it, the argument in favor of following international laws, systems and processes when dealing with inter-State issues is merely an extension of the argument (at the national level) that a civilized society needs to adhere to some basic codified institutional and legal structure.

    Pakistan's perceived motives are irrelevant in the wider context of the argument being made here about States adhering to the aforementioned 'basic code governing inter-State relations'.
    then stop supporting a war against your neighbours. Easy really.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

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    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Who the hell cares? The UN ain't going to do nothing. Not even condemning the US. All you have is a bureaucrat saying you're right, not even a legal authority.
      You have already made it quite clear that you don't want to see any kind of international system that would hold ALL nations accountable, including powers like the US, so your criticism here of the UN investigator is pretty meaningless.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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      • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
        No I meant your angst about drone strikes against tail bunnies within Pakistan. If you don't like them being bombed, stop supporting them and kick them out of your country.
        We aren't supporting them, and were it that easy to eliminate the problem of the Taliban insurgency then the US would have done it already in Afghanistan.

        I have nothing against targeted military operations against the Taliban - my criticism is of the violation of international law by the US in conducting those military strikes without involving Pakistan or obtaining Pakistani authorization for those strikes.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
          then stop supporting a war against your neighbours. Easy really.
          Pakistan isn't 'waging war against her neighbors' - and if anyone believes we are, then follow the existing international systems, processes and laws in place to obtain a UNSC Resolution declaring Pakistan to be the guilty party and sanctioning US military strikes inside Pakistan.

          Till such international sanction is obtained by the US/NATO/ISAF, your comments are nothing more than an unsubstantiated rant trying to excuse blatant violations of international law by the US.
          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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          • I am curious. Why is it that Iran can chase and shoot US drones down, but Pakistan cannot? Or will not?

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            • Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
              I am curious. Why is it that Iran can chase and shoot US drones down, but Pakistan cannot? Or will not?
              As I pointed out already, Iran essentially has no diplomatic relations with the US and is under severe US sanctions - Pakistan does not have anywhere close to that kind of a 'hostile relationship' with the US, at this point, so why would you expect Pakistan to react in the same manner as Iran?
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                so why would you expect Pakistan to react in the same manner as Iran?
                To protect its sovereignty?

                Surely not having a "hostile relationship" does not mean one allows any country to overfly ones airspace and kill its people?

                Surely not when a country with a weaker military and not even a nuclear power at that can do the same? And has done so more than once?

                Hence my curiosity.
                Last edited by doppelganger; 18 Mar 13,, 12:35.

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                • Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
                  To protect its sovereignty?

                  Surely not having a "hostile relationship" does not mean one allows any country to overfly ones airspace and kill its people?

                  Surely not when a country with a weaker military and not even a nuclear power at that can do the same?
                  The country with a 'weaker military' still has an economic and diplomatic relationship with the US (in contrast to Iran) and would like to maintain said relationship and therefore would like to resolve the issue through diplomatic channels.
                  Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                  https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    The country with a 'weaker military' still has an economic and diplomatic relationship with the US (in contrast to Iran) and would like to maintain said relationship and therefore would like to resolve the issue through diplomatic channels.
                    You misunderstood. I was speaking about Iran.

                    Btw, congratulations on creating history.

                    That the governement did not go down, or was brought down, does point to the fact that Pakistan was intrinsically ok with the drone attacks to an extent that the governement sitting by while its people were being bombed from remote locations thousands of miles away, continued to term unhindered.

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                    • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      You have already made it quite clear that you don't want to see any kind of international system that would hold ALL nations accountable, including powers like the US, so your criticism here of the UN investigator is pretty meaningless.
                      No, it is you who are clinging to meaningless bureaucrats spouting meaningless horse pucky. My words will be proven correct. The UN ain't going to do nothing.

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                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        No, it is you who are clinging to meaningless bureaucrats spouting meaningless horse pucky. My words will be proven correct. The UN ain't going to do nothing.
                        You are going around in circles and apparently completely missing the point I have been making - I agreed with you at the start of this discussion that the UN is ineffective in terms of implementing its own findings, especially when it comes to the global powers. But being ineffective does not change the fact that an independent UN investigation has in fact validated the Pakistani argument that US drone strikes in Pakistan are a blatant violation of international law.

                        The point is that you represent the global elite/tyrants that want to continue to be 'unaccountable and above the law', whereas my position is that the global elite/powers should be held accountable and subject to the same laws and policies the smaller nations are, and that the existing ineffective global systems and institutions should be reformed to achieve that.
                        Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 18 Mar 13,, 13:41.
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
                          That the governement did not go down, or was brought down, does point to the fact that Pakistan was intrinsically ok with the drone attacks to an extent that the governement sitting by while its people were being bombed from remote locations thousands of miles away, continued to term unhindered.
                          Pakistan is not 'intrinsically OK with US violations of international law' (drone strikes in Pakistan), just as it is not 'intrinsically OK' with the massive corruption, ineffective government, lack of development and lack of economic growth that has been the hallmark of the past five years of the PPP led government.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            You are going around in circles and apparently completely missing the point I have been making - I agreed with you at the start of this discussion that the UN is ineffective in terms of implementing its own findings, especially when it comes to the global powers. But being ineffective does not change the fact that an independent UN investigation has in fact validated the Pakistani argument that US drone strikes in Pakistan are a blatant violation of international law.
                            Horse pucky! A nameless bureaucrat without any legal authority giving an opinion without any legal strengths based on the one side and one side only and did not ask the Americans to provide their side of the story.

                            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            The point is that you represent the global elite/tyrants that want to continue to be 'unaccountable and above the law', whereas my position is that the global elite/powers should be held accountable and subject to the same laws and policies the smaller nations are, and that the existing ineffective global systems and institutions should be reformed to achieve that.
                            The point is that you have the legal right to defend your territory. Either put up or shut up.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              Pakistan is not 'intrinsically OK with US violations of international law' (drone strikes in Pakistan), just as it is not 'intrinsically OK' with the massive corruption, ineffective government, lack of development and lack of economic growth that has been the hallmark of the past five years of the PPP led government.
                              What? You voted them into power. Vote them out or impeech them ... or are your own laws not worth enforcing?

                              Comment


                              • You know what? I get it. It's everybody else's fault for not obeying the laws the way you want it to be obeyed but it's not your fault for not enforcing your own legal responsibilities.

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