US Assessment - Pakistan unaware of Laden's Location

[Officer of Engineers]

If that was the case then why does the report above indicate that Chinese officials argued ignorance over the exports rather than stating outright that they were in the process of compliance and had not at that time blacklisted the technology being exported?

Because it was ignorance. You have two different sets of books trying to rectify themselves and the Chinese themselves did not even know that ring magnets were forbidden items.

AQ Khan acting alone puts Pakistan in a better position than China given that China used the 'ignorance' excuse and the US bought it, plus the fact that Pakistan never violated the NPT since it is not a signatory.

Which means you had disastrously poor controls over your nuclear assets that AQ Khan even had access to Chagai-I warheads and managed to sneak them out of the country. Proliferation by ignorance is far more dangerous than proliferation by design. At the very least, the latter meant that you have thought things out. The former meant you forgot to lock the filing cabinets.

Plus, you gave nuke tech to Qaddafy, the Kims, and the Ayatollahs, all terror practitioners. Hardly a sign of responsible behavior.

With respect to demands that Pakistan 'dismantle her nukes and sign the NPT', we come back to the earlier point that the same has not been asked of India.

India obliged by practically signing the CTBT.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Because it was ignorance. You have two different sets of books trying to rectify themselves and the Chinese themselves did not even know that ring magnets were forbidden items.

Once again OOE, the report from the CRS does not suggest that the ignorance being referred to was an 'ignorance of what constituted banned items under the NPT', rather it clearly indicates that the Chinese were arguing that their leadership was ignorant about the violations of the NPT committed by Chinese entities, which in turn suggests that the argument you made below with respect to Pakistan applies to some degree to China as well, "which means China had disastrously poor controls over her nuclear assets allowing them to be taken out of the country without the alleged knowledge of her senior leadership'.

Which means you had disastrously poor controls over your nuclear assets that AQ Khan even had access to Chagai-I warheads and managed to sneak them out of the country. Proliferation by ignorance is far more dangerous than proliferation by design. At the very least, the latter meant that you have thought things out. The former meant you forgot to lock the filing cabinets.

Proliferation by 'ignorance', which is Pakistan's position on the outward proliferation by AQ Khan, can be rectified once the problem is identified, and information about the steps taken to rectify the issue can be provided to the international community (as Pakistan has done) without compromising national security.

Plus, you gave nuke tech to Qaddafy, the Kims, and the Ayatollahs, all terror practitioners. Hardly a sign of responsible behavior.

AQ Khan gave technology to those entities, much as the Swiss scientist Tinner worked with Gaddafi as to develop Libya's nuclear program - the role of the two individuals in proliferating to certain entities does not automatically implicate the nations they hail from.

India obliged by practically signing the CTBT.

When did India sign the CTBT? If you are referring to her voluntary moratorium on nuclear tests, then I can point to a similar one by Pakistan:

"President Bill Clinton and Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee issued a joint statement September 15 reaffirming India's voluntary suspension of nuclear testing pending entry into force of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) and its commitment not to block the treaty's entry into force. In an apparent response, Pakistan said it would also maintain its testing moratorium until the CTBT enters into force...

... Mirroring India's pledge, at a September 25 news conference Pakistani Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar said, "Pending CTBT entry into force, Pakistan will maintain its moratorium and refrain from further tests unless another extraordinary event occurs that jeopardizes [its] security interests." According to the Pakistani embassy in Washington, the statement represents an "enhancement" of Pakistan's CTBT policy because it affixes a time frame to the initially "open-ended" moratorium imposed after Pakistan's nuclear tests in May 1998."

India Reaffirms Its CTBT Policy, Pakistan Follows | Arms Control Association

[Officer of Engineers]

Once again OOE, the report from the CRS does not suggest that the ignorance being referred to was an 'ignorance of what constituted banned items under the NPT', rather it clearly indicates that the Chinese were arguing that their leadership was ignorant about the violations of the NPT committed by Chinese entities, which in turn suggests that the argument you made below with respect to Pakistan applies to some degree to China as well, "which means China had disastrously poor controls over her nuclear assets allowing them to be taken out of the country without the alleged knowledge of her senior leadership'.

You're not reading me. Prior to signing of the NPT, the Chinese had no problems selling ring magnets or other restricted materials such as heavy water to India. The bureaucracy was not in place either in oversight nor knowledge of restrictions amongst both the businesses and the overseeing authorities.

Proliferation by 'ignorance', which is Pakistan's position on the outward proliferation by AQ Khan, can be rectified once the problem is identified, and information about the steps taken to rectify the issue can be provided to the international community (as Pakistan has done) without compromising national security.

These are warhead blueprints! Not ring magnets nor heavy water.

AQ Khan gave technology to those entities, much as the Swiss scientist Tinner worked with Gaddafi as to develop Libya's nuclear program - the role of the two individuals in proliferating to certain entities does not automatically implicate the nations they hail from.

Of course it does. I don't take everything AQ Khan said to be the truth but once supported by an outside source, in this case, Henderson's Pakistani General, it meant that AQ Khan had no need to know and still had access.

When did India sign the CTBT? If you are referring to her voluntary moratorium on nuclear tests, then I can point to a similar one by Pakistan:

The 123 Agreement is null and void once India tests. So does American support for India's NSG exemption and all materials would be withdrawn if India tests.

[Blademaster]

The 123 Agreement is null and void once India tests. So does American support for India's NSG exemption and all materials would be withdrawn if India tests.

And so far, India has not purchase any equipments from the Western powers so to speak. Therefore, I find your argument of being bound to CTBT to be lacking.

[Officer of Engineers]

And so far, India has not purchase any equipments from the Western powers so to speak. Therefore, I find your argument of being bound to CTBT to be lacking.

Hitesh, stop twisting the facts. You and I both know that the Hyde Act kills 123 upon an Indian test.

After that, the US is obligated to withdraw all technologies from India, including those supplied by the NSG ... this essentially means everything.

Find me a piece of nuclear technology that India wants that does not have a US patent on it.

India tests. She loses the NSG. PERIOD.

[Blademaster]

Once India gets the fast breeder technology going, there is no need for NSG. US patents are only enforceable in US courts. What is the US going to do if Indian companies start manufacturing indigenous nuclear technology products?

[Blademaster]

Hitesh, stop twisting the facts. You and I both know that the Hyde Act kills 123 upon an Indian test.

After that, the US is obligated to withdraw all technologies from India, including those supplied by the NSG ... this essentially means everything.
.

Pray tell me how is US going to force India to give back the technology? India survived sanctions before and got along fine.

[Officer of Engineers]

Pray tell me how is US going to force India to give back the technology? India survived sanctions before and got along fine.

Hitesh, are you serious?

It's called intellectual property rights. It is enforced through Indian Courts. All sales will operate under both American and Indian Law and since the 123 Treaty states that both sides can withdraw simply by giving notice. Indian Courts will have no choice but to force Indian companies to return all equipment, software, and any copyright materials with American technologies in them. Indian courts will also obliged to stop any individual with American training to divulge their knowledge to the Indian nuclear industry.

This is the exact same method the NSG forced China not to give Pakistan anything above 1970 technologies. China does not own the IPR to anything more advance that they can give to Pakistan.

You're a lawyer. You should know better than this.

Whether India can survive without the NSG is besides the point. The point is that the US, knowingly, built safeguards into their support to India.

[Officer of Engineers]

Once India gets the fast breeder technology going, there is no need for NSG.

I wish India all the best. I really do. If she succeeds, that means a new level of technology that the world can exploit and India can benefit.

But the sad truth is that Fast Breeder is an expensive and very possibly a losing bet. Other countries have looked into it and deemed it unprofitable.

Maybe India got an inside track, have some piece of inside knowledge that no one else came up ... but she has not produced a profitable method to date despite over 15 years of research.

There is some promise to Indian research ... but don't you find it odd that no one else is taking it up?

US patents are only enforceable in US courts.

But any sale of technology includes IPR. India to date cannot sell her own version of Windows even though Microsoft was extremely late in getting an Indian patten.

What is the US going to do if Indian companies start manufacturing indigenous nuclear technology products?

If it's better than American products, buy them. That has always been the case.

[Officer of Engineers]

Now that you mention it, I do recall one of the reasons for the lack of sales is precisely because Indian Intellectual property protection laws are lacking.

[Monash]

India is doing some interesting work[/I]ork with Thorium to. If they pull it off it will be their turn to worry about the IP riights

[anil]

The 123 act has only one interpretation and both the US and India have an agreement on it.

OoE, yes, the conditions are clear. The opposition political party in india did their part by voting against the deal but it went through regardless.

Though you need to understand that the indian media works as a subsidiary of the ruling regime very similar to the PRC mouthpieces in china. The media provides a different interpretation of the 123 act as it is primarily meant for indian public consumption.

[Double Edge]

Now that you mention it, I do recall one of the reasons for the lack of sales is precisely because Indian Intellectual property protection laws are lacking.

I think its more due to the liability act that still remains to be passed. Presently if there is a nuclear accident the foreign suppler would also be liable as per Indian law. Though in time i imagine this will be crossed, there is a strong interest in nuclear tech for electricty generation. And big bucks to be made for the suppliers.

[Double Edge]

OoE, yes, the conditions are clear. The opposition political party in india did their part by voting against the deal but it went through regardless.

We need electricity to keep on growing into the future. Any opposition party would have signed that deal.

Though you need to understand that the indian media works as a subsidiary of the ruling regime very similar to the PRC mouthpieces in china.

The Indian media is anybody & everybody's mouthpiece. Getting a critical take on any issue takes much digging. Increasingly i have to resort to foreign takes to get a better picture. The real problem with indian media is a lack of viable foreign competition Our media isn't world class.

I'm very much for allowing more FDI into the current affairs sector, which is currently limited to only 26%. It needs to be upped to 51% for any foreign media house to give a damn.

bennett coleman argues that current affairs is a strategic sector but that's just another way of saying protectionism.

The media provides a different interpretation of the 123 act as it is primarily meant for indian public consumption.

All the people that mattered voiced support for the nuke deal. It was an acceptable compromise.

Bottomline is we still have our deterrent and can continue to work on it. In short, we can complete our triad.

MIRV'ing missiles or putting nukes in subs. That latter bit is going to have some interesting implications for our nuke doctrine. Do we let nukes on subs out of the ports or keep them in port. What about patrols. Issues with de-mating etc. Chinese will have to think these same issues out as well.

[Blademaster]

Hitesh, are you serious?

It's called intellectual property rights. It is enforced through Indian Courts. All sales will operate under both American and Indian Law and since the 123 Treaty states that both sides can withdraw simply by giving notice. Indian Courts will have no choice but to force Indian companies to return all equipment, software, and any copyright materials with American technologies in them. Indian courts will also obliged to stop any individual with American training to divulge their knowledge to the Indian nuclear industry.

This is the exact same method the NSG forced China not to give Pakistan anything above 1970 technologies. China does not own the IPR to anything more advance that they can give to Pakistan.

You're a lawyer. You should know better than this.

Whether India can survive without the NSG is besides the point. The point is that the US, knowingly, built safeguards into their support to India.

Not when it comes to national security or national interests. National interests trumps intellectual rights and there have been legal precedents here in the US and in Europe. Come on you know better than that. Ever heard of corporate espionage? You have western powers spying on each other and stealing each other trade secrets and etc.

Indian courts will not place American interests and rights over the interests of India's national security. You should also know that. As for safeguards, that is why India is not a willing buyer of American technology. They just signed the 123 agreement to get around the NSG legalities and trade with Russia and France. USA was never India's intended supplier but Russia and France.