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  • #61
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    I used the term 'non-functioning' in reference to the the available information suggesting that the design was 90-95% complete and missing some of the critical electronics.
    The CICH-4 was a primitive big design. Pack enough explosives around the core to achieve critical mass. It's not that hard to figure out what's missing.

    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Then what is the basis for NSG opposition to the Chinese proposal to construct nuclear reactors in Pakistan?
    The same one that Russia did for India before the Indian exemption, that an NPT a NSG member is conducting trade outside the NPT and the NSG and there is a dispute whether the aid to Pakistan falls into the Grandfather clause.

    However, whatever the case, the aid to Pakistan is definitely of Grandfather technology. There is nothing going in that is above 1970s technology.

    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Yet aside from the incomplete CICH-4 design, AQ Khan's network was not involved in any direct nuclear weapons design related assistance or exports. Centrifuges and other technologies with use in civilian nuclear programs is what his network was primarily involved in, though I agree that some/most of the technology he proliferated might have been dual use.
    Horse puckey, the Iranians got the Chagai-I designs, the very ones that was found in Switzerland.

    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Then why is the US/NSG officially opposed to the proposed Chinese nuclear reactor construction in Pakistan, given that all the proposed NPP's will be under IAEA safeguards?
    Because it is NOT under IAEA's safegurads.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
      So, after cutting through the rant, what you stated was
      that there is absolutely no evidence that Pakistani institutions were involved in sheltering OBL - if people want to survive on conspiracy theories and prejudice because of incessant anti-Pakistan propaganda in the Western media, then that is their choice, but please don't pretend that you have facts supporting your conspiracy theories.
      Did I really say there are corroborative evidence of Pakistani Institutional involvement?
      Didn't I ALSO suggest that the lack of the same is NOT enough, NOT to be suspicious and wary of Pakistan/ISI/PA due to your EXCELLENT TRACK RECORD so far?

      Comprehension problems? Its like the entire neighborhood is suspicious of you to be a thief due to some stolen article confiscated from your premise. Nobody has ANY corroborative evidence to prove you to be the thief. Does that qualifies you to claim the trust of your neighbors as your rightful felicity???

      An NSG exemption is not a 'handout' - it would merely allow Pakistan to trade in civilian nuclear technology with other NSG members (if they desired to) on a commercial basis. Given that there are multiple nations on the NSG currently that have committed far worse proliferation than Pakistan has, the current argument against granting Pakistan an NSG exemption is hypocritical and dishonest.
      Get real. The N-5 calls the shots. You have ZERO credibility to claim an equal. Even considering that France or China or both, DID really proliferate, still doesn't qualifies Pakistan to claim an equal. You are not N-5 and certainly not that innocent, that's the reality.

      OTOH India got the deal because the global order found our track record clean and didn't consider us as something to be wary of. Period.
      Last edited by Deltacamelately; 30 Nov 12,, 15:24.
      sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        The CICH-4 was a primitive big design. Pack enough explosives around the core to achieve critical mass. It's not that hard to figure out what's missing.
        Nonetheless, an incomplete design, and the Libyans apparently found it pretty hard to figure out.

        The same one that Russia did for India before the Indian exemption, that an NPT a NSG member is conducting trade outside the NPT and the NSG and there is a dispute whether the aid to Pakistan falls into the Grandfather clause.
        Which takes me back to my earlier point that the NSG restrictions on trade for NPT non-signatories are counter-productive because allowing such trade in exchange for inspections, regulations and restrictions on that trade and its uses would increase transparency.

        Horse puckey, the Iranians got the Chagai-I designs, the very ones that was found in Switzerland.
        I have read that there is speculation those designs could have been obtained by the Iranians and others given that they were found in a digital format, but I have not read any account that suggests conclusively that the Iranians have the design. My second question on that count would be whether the Chagai-I design was a Plutonium based design or not, because if it was the former, then that would not fit in with the Iranian drive to increase their Uranium enrichment capacity.
        Because it is NOT under IAEA's safegurads.
        That is incorrect:
        http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Doc...infcirc816.pdf
        Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 30 Nov 12,, 17:19.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          Nobody has ANY corroborative evidence to prove you to be the thief.
          Thanks, based on that, please keep your smear campaigns and propaganda to yourself then.

          Even considering that France or China or both, DID really proliferate, still doesn't qualifies Pakistan to claim an equal. You are not N-5 and certainly not that innocent, that's the reality.
          France and China did proliferate nuclear technology, the Chinese apparently proliferated nuclear weapons technology - so if the NSG itself wants to argue that Pakistan's proliferation record is the reason the NSG is opposing an NSG exemption for Pakistan, then that argument is dishonest and hypocritical.

          OTOH India got the deal because the global order found our track record clean and didn't consider us as something to be wary of. Period.
          India got the deal because the US and other Western nations saw it as a means of building a strategic relationship with India along with the potential economic windfall from selling India civilian nuclear technology and raw material.
          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            Nonetheless, an incomplete design, and the Libyans apparently found it pretty hard to figure out.
            The Libyans were nowhere close to even begin to figure things out. They were not even on the doorsteps of building a weapons lab, let alone a weapon. However, the Pakistanis sure figured it out.

            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            Which takes me back to my earlier point that the NSG restrictions on trade for NPT non-signatories are counter-productive because allowing such trade in exchange for inspections, regulations and restrictions on that trade and its uses would increase transparency.
            The NSG came into existence precisely because of Smiling Buddha, that is that India used NPT members' technologies to build a nuke. Whatever else, it can be said that the NSG has halted nuclear weapons trade from NPT members to non-NPT members, even if it was unwittingly.

            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            I have read that there is speculation those designs could have been obtained by the Iranians and others given that they were found in a digital format, but I have not read any account that suggests conclusively that the Iranians have the design. My second question on that count would be whether the Chagai-I design was a Plutonium based design or not, because if it was the former, then that would not fit in with the Iranian drive to increase their Uranium enrichment capacity.
            The accusation was first made by AQ Khan in his leaked memoirs. Simon Henderson, in his research to verify AQ Khan's claims, revealed that a Pakistani General independently informed him that AQ Khan has transferred the blueprints without knowing anything about AQ Khan's memoirs.

            Chagai-I was uranium based. The one Pu sample has been explained as fall out from the Indian Pok-II test.

            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            I stand corrected.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Dec 12,, 10:54.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              France and China did proliferate nuclear technology, the Chinese apparently proliferated nuclear weapons technology - so if the NSG itself wants to argue that Pakistan's proliferation record is the reason the NSG is opposing an NSG exemption for Pakistan, then that argument is dishonest and hypocritical.
              No signatory to the NPT has ever proliferate nuclear technology outside the NPT. What was done before was before they're signing the NPT.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                No signatory to the NPT has ever proliferate nuclear technology outside the NPT. What was done before was before they're signing the NPT.
                But since Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, I would argue that the same 'forgiveness for past acts of nuclear proliferation' should be extended to her ...
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  But since Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, I would argue that the same 'forgiveness for past acts of nuclear proliferation' should be extended to her ...
                  You betrayed Chinese trust and proliferated Chinese weapons technology.

                  You want to be treated like the NPT. Then, sign the NPT.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    You betrayed Chinese trust and proliferated Chinese weapons technology.

                    You want to be treated like the NPT. Then, sign the NPT.
                    Extend that to all the NPT non-signatories then - apparently these conditions are selectively applied since I do not recall any condition about signing the NPT being applied to India when granting her the NSG exemption.
                    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      Extend that to all the NPT non-signatories then - apparently these conditions are selectively applied since I do not recall any condition about signing the NPT being applied to India when granting her the NSG exemption.
                      And encourage nuclear weapons proliferation? Not a chance in hell.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        And encourage nuclear weapons proliferation? Not a chance in hell.
                        It has already been encouraged with the Chinese admission into the NSG.
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          It has already been encouraged with the Chinese admission into the NSG.
                          China's proliferation activities were before she signed the NPT. She has been a model citizen ever since, even reporting on Iranian nuclear activities and restricting dual use materials to Iran.

                          Try again.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            China's proliferation activities were before she signed the NPT. She has been a model citizen ever since, even reporting on Iranian nuclear activities and restricting dual use materials to Iran.

                            Try again.
                            In 1996, some in Congress called for sanctions after reports disclosed that China sold unsafeguarded ring magnets to Pakistan, apparently in violation of the NPT and in contradiction of U.S. laws, including the Arms Export Control Act (P.L. 90-629) and Export-Import Bank Act (P.L. 79-173), as amended by the Nuclear Proliferation Prevention Act of 1994 (Title VIII of P.L. 103-236). On February 5, 1996, the Washington Times disclosed intelligence reports that the China National Nuclear Corporation, a state-owned corporation, transferred to the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratory in Kahuta, Pakistan, 5,000 ring magnets that can be used in gas centrifuges to enrich uranium. Reportedly, intelligence experts believed that the magnets provided to Pakistan were to be used in special suspension bearings at the top of rotating cylinders in the centrifuges. The New York Times, on May 12, 1996, reported that the shipment was made after June 1994 and was worth $70,000. The PRC company involved was China Nuclear Energy Industry Corporation, a subsidiary of the China National Nuclear Corporation. The State Department’s report on nonproliferation efforts in South Asia (issued on January 21, 1997) confirmed that “between late 1994 and mid-1995, a Chinese entity transferred a large number of ring magnets to Pakistan for use in its uranium enrichment program.”

                            The Clinton Administration’s decision-making was complicated by considerations of U.S. corporations doing business in China. Officials reportedly considered imposing then waiving sanctions or focusing sanctions only on the China National Nuclear Corporation, rather than large-scale sanctions affecting the entire PRC government and U.S. companies, such as Westinghouse Electric Corporation (which had deals pending with China National Nuclear Corporation) and Boeing Aircraft Company. In February 1996, Secretary of State Warren Christopher instructed the Export-Import Bank to suspend financing for commercial deals in China for one month, reported the New York Times (February 29, 1996). Christopher reportedly required time to obtain more information to determine whether sanctions would be required. Meanwhile, DCI John Deutch reportedly said at a White House meeting that PRC officials at some level likely approved the sale of magnets. Defense Secretary William Perry supported this view, but officials of the Commerce and Treasury Departments and the U.S. Trade Representative argued there was lack of solid proof, according to the Washington Post (April 1, 1996).

                            On May 10, 1996, the State Department announced that China and Pakistan would not be sanctioned, citing a new agreement with China. Clinton Administration officials said that China promised to provide future assistance only to safeguarded nuclear facilities, reaffirmed its commitment to nuclear nonproliferation, and agreed to consultations on export control and proliferation issues. The Administration also said that PRC leaders insisted they were not aware of the magnet transfer and that there was no evidence that the PRC government had willfully aided or abetted Pakistan’s nuclear weapon program through the magnet transfer. Thus, the State Department announced that sanctions were not warranted, and Export-Import Bank considerations of loans for U.S. exporters to China were returned to normal.

                            http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL31555.pdf


                            The highlighted part is basically the same argument Pakistani political and military leaders have made, that they did not sanction AQ Khan's outward nuclear proliferation.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              China's signature to the NPT was 1992. It took a full five years for China to come into full compliance with the NPT, namely bureaucratic and accounting practices. As such, the ring magnets were not on China's own forbidden list until afterwards when the Americans raised the fuss.

                              Whether AQ Khan was alone or not really ignores the point that Pakistan does not qualify for an NSG exemption. You want NSG exemption? Dismantle your nukes and sign the NPT.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                China's signature to the NPT was 1992. It took a full five years for China to come into full compliance with the NPT, namely bureaucratic and accounting practices. As such, the ring magnets were not on China's own forbidden list until afterwards when the Americans raised the fuss.
                                If that was the case then why does the report above indicate that Chinese officials argued ignorance over the exports rather than stating outright that they were in the process of compliance and had not at that time blacklisted the technology being exported?
                                Whether AQ Khan was alone or not really ignores the point that Pakistan does not qualify for an NSG exemption. You want NSG exemption? Dismantle your nukes and sign the NPT.
                                AQ Khan acting alone puts Pakistan in a better position than China given that China used the 'ignorance' excuse and the US bought it, plus the fact that Pakistan never violated the NPT since it is not a signatory.

                                With respect to demands that Pakistan 'dismantle her nukes and sign the NPT', we come back to the earlier point that the same has not been asked of India.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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