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  • #46
    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
    I still don't see what you are trying to get that? There is no such thing as a free lunch. Every country has a "transactional" relationship with every other. What's your point?
    My point is that the US did no favors to Pakistan - US aid to Pakistan was and is in exchange for Pakistani support on various issues.

    The US has spoiled you so much with all that maternal treatment that you don't even know what an "anti-Pakistan" position is anymore. Sounds more like a spoiled teenager revolting against his/her parents.
    I actually detailed what the 'anti-Pakistan US position' entails but perhaps I need to list it again to make it clearer:

    1. Supporting/sheltering terrorists groups such as the Baloch terrorist groups (sheltering Bugti) and the TTP (sheltering the TTP/Mullah FM)

    2. Refusing to categorically and officially accept the UN recognized Afghan-Pakistan international border and make clear to the Afghans that they would not get any support from the US on that issue and needed to take their claims to an international body like the UN or ICJ if they continued to insist on their claims.

    ** I do have to clarify that Grossman made some reference in support of the Pakistani position in some private comments he made in Afghanistan earlier this year, which riled the Afghans no end apparently, but this is still a far cry from a clear official US statement on the issue of the Durand Line.

    3. Discriminatory treatment on the international scene with respect to civilian nuclear technology.

    4. Continued military operations inside Pakistani territory in violation of international law and the UN Charter.

    I'm not saying you should sit on the same side, I'm just saying you should stop pretending to.
    Pakistan's positions are clear - where is the pretense?

    As long as you can convince the NSG with that argument, sure.
    That is the point though, the US is the most influential member of the NSG and it has made clear that it will continue its double standards WRT Pakistan and will not consider an NSG exemption for Pakistan.
    It's already been answered by other members, but again, lack of evidence is just that, lack of evidence. Nothing more.
    Lack of evidence determines innocence, otherwise you and the others taking this position need to also start giving a degree of credibility to the 9/11 conspiracy theories.
    Just with the slight difference of Binnie boy actually being caught living in a Pakistani garrison town and Haqqani, Hekmatyar, Mullah Omar and Co. enjoying Pakistani hospitality for more than a decade.
    And the 9/11 hijackers lived, trained, received funding and carried out their attacks in the US ...
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      HORSE PUCKEY!!!! ACCORDING TO YOUR VERY OWN POSTS! PAKISTAN REJECTED CHINESE DESIGNS AND WENT WITH THEIR OWN!
      Not sure which posts you are referring to, but are you referring to the arguments based on the latest weapons designs proliferation investigators found, that suggested that the Pakistani bomb design had improved significantly from what was previously known? If that account is true, then certainly Pakistan has a more advanced nuclear capability compared to the outdated Chinese designs obtained from the Libyans.

      But that said, are you going to argue that the Pakistani proliferation network operated by AQ Khan, which was primarily used to obtain nuclear technology for Pakistan from around the world, played no such role?

      As far as Israel is concerned, I CHALLENGED YOU TO show me that Isareli nukes are more advanced than Pakistani nukes ... which REJECTED CHINESE DESIGNS according to you!
      Again, I cannot recall getting into a discussion with you on Israeli nukes being more advanced than Pakistani nukes, and I am certainly not making any such claim on this thread - I am merely pointing out that proliferation by Western nations, Russia and China to Israel and Pakistan dwarfs the proliferation AQ Khan conducted to Libya, Iran and NK, and despite that proliferation record, those nations are still part of the NSG, which makes the refusal to provide Pakistan an NSG exemption on the basis of the proliferation argument hypocritical and flawed.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
        And yet you want the international community to trust and respect an institution, that is the Pakistani State, which has failed to keep its house clean and in order?
        The international communities own investigations have found no evidence of Pakistani institutional complicity, so I expect the international community to abide by the rule of law and accept the fact that they have no evidence and stop smearing Pakistan by making speculative allegations.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
          My point is that the US did no favors to Pakistan - US aid to Pakistan was and is in exchange for Pakistani support on various issues.
          Than why crib about "betrayal" and whatnot? When you lay claim to a "transactional" relationship, "betrayal" doesn't come into the picture by a long shot. You got your money, you got your weapons, end of story.

          I actually detailed what the 'anti-Pakistan US position' entails but perhaps I need to list it again to make it clearer:

          1. Supporting/sheltering terrorists groups such as the Baloch terrorist groups (sheltering Bugti) and the TTP (sheltering the TTP/Mullah FM)
          Try asking Afghanistan for them; I'm sure there can be an exchange arranged in return for Haqqani, Hekmatyar and Omar. ;)

          2. Refusing to categorically and officially accept the UN recognized Afghan-Pakistan international border and make clear to the Afghans that they would not get any support from the US on that issue and needed to take their claims to an international body like the UN or ICJ if they continued to insist on their claims.

          ** I do have to clarify that Grossman made some reference in support of the Pakistani position in some private comments he made in Afghanistan earlier this year, which riled the Afghans no end apparently, but this is still a far cry from a clear official US statement on the issue of the Durand Line.
          From your own media:
          Durand Line is international border, says US diplomat | DAWN.COM
          US reaffirms international status of Durand Line | DAWN.COM
          Durand Line is border, says US | DAWN.COM

          Find something else to crib about.

          **Grossman and the US have publicly stood by that statement, so if you're not satisfied with that, tough luck.

          3. Discriminatory treatment on the international scene with respect to civilian nuclear technology.
          It's not discriminatory if you realize what position you are talking from. Pakistan proliferated nuclear tech, and that's the bottom line. You can't throw a fit and roll on the ground for your candy each time.

          4. Continued military operations inside Pakistani territory in violation of international law and the UN Charter.
          It's not in violation of international law as long as Haqqanis, Hekmatyar and Omar continue to operate from there.

          Pakistan's positions are clear - where is the pretense?
          The pretense is in you taking the aid when you're not even fighting the same war.

          That is the point though, the US is the most influential member of the NSG and it has made clear that it will continue its double standards WRT Pakistan and will not consider an NSG exemption for Pakistan.
          What have you done in the past decade to deserve an NSG exemption?

          Lack of evidence determines innocence, otherwise you and the others taking this position need to also start giving a degree of credibility to the 9/11 conspiracy theories.
          If you're arguing Pakistan's case from a lawyer's perspective, yes, but when was the last time that lawyer's aspired trust?

          And the 9/11 hijackers lived, trained, received funding and carried out their attacks in the US ...
          Bottom line, "carried out their attacks in the US". Pakistan exports terror, so it is not the same thing.
          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            The international communities own investigations have found no evidence of Pakistani institutional complicity, so I expect the international community to abide by the rule of law and accept the fact that they have no evidence and stop smearing Pakistan by making speculative allegations.
            Let me be blunt. If indeed the US Intelligence Agencies had corroborative evidence of Pakistani institutional complicity, Rawalpindi would already be in ashes. Having said that, the lack of evidence is still not sufficient for the rest of the world not to be suspicious and wary of Pakistan/ISI/PA. The same lack of evidence doesn't translates into trust, enough to give you hand-outs, such as an NSG exception and sundry. Get real.
            sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              Not sure which posts you are referring to, but are you referring to the arguments based on the latest weapons designs proliferation investigators found, that suggested that the Pakistani bomb design had improved significantly from what was previously known? If that account is true, then certainly Pakistan has a more advanced nuclear capability compared to the outdated Chinese designs obtained from the Libyans.
              Your words

              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              AQ Khan did nothing compared to the European, Russian and Chinese proliferation activities that resulted in functioning, and still improving, nuclear weapons programs in Israel and Pakistan, so if proliferation of nuclear weapons technology is the issue, then Pakistan is nowhere close to being at the top of the list of 'proliferation sinners'.
              So, you just stated that Pakistani designs are now ahead of initial Chinese designs provided and judging from Chagai-I with zero help from the Chinese. In other words, the Chinese have stopped helping your nuclear weapons program since the 80s.

              As far as Israel is concerned, there is absolutely no evidence - none, nadda, zilch, not even a shred of evidence, not even a rumour of a suggested theft, just some vague suggestion with zero concrete examples of anything.




              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              But that said, are you going to argue that the Pakistani proliferation network operated by AQ Khan, which was primarily used to obtain nuclear technology for Pakistan from around the world, played no such role?
              With the exceptions allowed by the NPT of nuclear weapons sharing during the times of nuclear war and nuclear weapons trade between the N5, no nuclear weapons designs have ever passed onto non-N5 powers, theft or otherwise.

              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              Again, I cannot recall getting into a discussion with you on Israeli nukes being more advanced than Pakistani nukes, and I am certainly not making any such claim on this thread - I am merely pointing out that proliferation by Western nations, Russia and China to Israel and Pakistan dwarfs the proliferation AQ Khan conducted to Libya, Iran and NK, and despite that proliferation record, those nations are still part of the NSG, which makes the refusal to provide Pakistan an NSG exemption on the basis of the proliferation argument hypocritical and flawed.
              Your knowledge is incomplete, based on rumour, and innuendo.

              For a detailed discussion about Israeli nukes, examine this thread

              http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mid...apability.html

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                Than why crib about "betrayal" and whatnot? When you lay claim to a "transactional" relationship, "betrayal" doesn't come into the picture by a long shot. You got your money, you got your weapons, end of story.
                The same argument applies on your end - why crib about Pakistani betrayal and what not and paint the US as Pakistan's 'benefactor' when the facts are that US aid has always been in exchange for Pakistani support on various issues - you raised this line of argument, not me.

                Try asking Afghanistan for them; I'm sure there can be an exchange arranged in return for Haqqani, Hekmatyar and Omar. ;)
                We have been asking for them for years (Musharraf was ridiculed for raising this issue and Pakistan called paranoid and clinging to conspiracy theories), and now that US diplomatic cables clearly show knowledge of the sheltering of these terrorists at the highest levels of the US and Afghan governments, the evidence of US/Afghan sheltering of terrorists is irrefutable.


                From your own media:
                Durand Line is international border, says US diplomat | DAWN.COM
                US reaffirms international status of Durand Line | DAWN.COM
                Durand Line is border, says US | DAWN.COM

                Find something else to crib about.

                **Grossman and the US have publicly stood by that statement, so if you're not satisfied with that, tough luck.
                All those links related to Grossman's statement that I referred to, and I will admit that I missed the statement by the State Department supporting Grossman's comments on the Durand Line, which is really the only one that counts in terms of an official US response. That said, it has taken a long time to come, and its timing at this point perhaps is indicative of greater behind the scenes cooperation on Afghanistan between the US and Pakistan.

                It's not discriminatory if you realize what position you are talking from. Pakistan proliferated nuclear tech, and that's the bottom line.
                China, Russia and the West proliferated nuclear technology as well, and resulted in at least two fully functioning nuclear weapons programs in Israel and Pakistan (I have read OOE's comments and will respond to them in a bit), so yes, the argument that Pakistan cannot be granted an NSG exemption because of its proliferation record is hypocritical and dishonest since several of the existing NSG members have engaged in far worse nuclear proliferation than AQ Khan.

                It's not in violation of international law as long as Haqqanis, Hekmatyar and Omar continue to operate from there.
                If your allegation is true then the US is free to argue its case in front of the UNSC and obtain UNSC Resolutions in favor of its acts of 'Self Defence against attacks by the Haqqanis, Hekmetyar and Omar'. In the absence of any UNSC sanction for US military operations inside Pakistan, the US is acting in violation of international law and the UN Charter and its provisions on Self Defence that require a member State acting in Self Defence to report its actions to the UN.

                The pretense is in you taking the aid when you're not even fighting the same war.
                That is your opinion, the US is free to stop providing assistance to Pakistan if it shares that view.
                What have you done in the past decade to deserve an NSG exemption?
                A rapidly expanding civilian nuclear power program and increased domestic production of various components used in civilian nuclear reactors.
                If you're arguing Pakistan's case from a lawyer's perspective, yes, but when was the last time that lawyer's aspired trust?
                I am arguing Pakistan's case from a legal and fact based perspective - are you suggesting that you have no trust or respect in the rule of law or facts?
                Bottom line, "carried out their attacks in the US". Pakistan exports terror, so it is not the same thing.
                'Pakistan exports terror' is a canard you put in there, as of yet unsubstantiated with respect to allegations that Pakistani institutions supported OBL and/or AQ.

                If US intelligence could fail in detecting an large AQ cell living, training and receiving money from terrorists outside the US, and carrying out a massive terrorist attack simultaneously on multiple locations, then Pakistani intelligence, with far fewer resources can certainly suffer a similar lapse in not being able to find OBL.
                Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 28 Nov 12,, 16:48.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                  Let me be blunt. If indeed the US Intelligence Agencies had corroborative evidence of Pakistani institutional complicity, Rawalpindi would already be in ashes. Having said that, the lack of evidence is still not sufficient for the rest of the world not to be suspicious and wary of Pakistan/ISI/PA. The same lack of evidence doesn't translates into trust, enough to give you hand-outs, such as an NSG exception and sundry. Get real.
                  So, after cutting through the rant, what you stated was that there is absolutely no evidence that Pakistani institutions were involved in sheltering OBL - if people want to survive on conspiracy theories and prejudice because of incessant anti-Pakistan propaganda in the Western media, then that is their choice, but please don't pretend that you have facts supporting your conspiracy theories.

                  An NSG exemption is not a 'handout' - it would merely allow Pakistan to trade in civilian nuclear technology with other NSG members (if they desired to) on a commercial basis. Given that there are multiple nations on the NSG currently that have committed far worse proliferation than Pakistan has, the current argument against granting Pakistan an NSG exemption is hypocritical and dishonest.
                  Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 28 Nov 12,, 16:49.
                  Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                  https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    Your words

                    So, you just stated that Pakistani designs are now ahead of initial Chinese designs provided and judging from Chagai-I with zero help from the Chinese. In other words, the Chinese have stopped helping your nuclear weapons program since the 80s.

                    As far as Israel is concerned, there is absolutely no evidence - none, nadda, zilch, not even a shred of evidence, not even a rumour of a suggested theft, just some vague suggestion with zero concrete examples of anything.

                    With the exceptions allowed by the NPT of nuclear weapons sharing during the times of nuclear war and nuclear weapons trade between the N5, no nuclear weapons designs have ever passed onto non-N5 powers, theft or otherwise.

                    Your knowledge is incomplete, based on rumour, and innuendo.

                    For a detailed discussion about Israeli nukes, examine this thread

                    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mid...apability.html
                    I can only comment on the publicly available reports that suggested a significantly smaller and more advanced warhead design allegedly developed by Pakistan, discovered by nuclear proliferation investigators. I do not know if the report is true since Pakistan has not officially commented on it and I do not have any more details about the status of Pakistani nuclear weapons design.

                    There are plenty of reports of French assistance for the Israeli nuclear program, distinct from assistance for an Israeli nuclear weapons program. I have not argued that Israel received direct assistance for a nuclear warhead, but that Israel and Pakistan both were at the receiving ends of nuclear technology sourced from the West and China. I am sure you would agree that a fully functioning nuclear weapons program is not merely about designing a functioning warhead, and requires a nation to reasonably master all the associated technology and processes of producing the necessary fuel used in the warhead. The publicly available reports I have read indicate that Israel did receive assistance from European sources for its civilian nuclear program. The argument that I am making here is that Pakistan is accused of proliferating nuclear technology to other nations, but that proliferation was overwhelmingly for technology such as centrifuges etc. which have a use in civilian nuclear programs, and current members of the NSG have proliferated far more nuclear technology (China apparently a bomb design, given the incomplete blueprints provided by the Libyans) than Pakistan, so why continue with the canard that Pakistan has the worst proliferation record in the world?
                    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 28 Nov 12,, 16:49.
                    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      I can only comment on the publicly available reports that suggested a significantly smaller and more advanced warhead design allegedly developed by Pakistan, discovered by nuclear proliferation investigators. I do not know if the report is true since Pakistan has not officially commented on it and I do not have any more details about the status of Pakistani nuclear weapons design.
                      You can be certain that the Pakistanis have worked or are still working on correcting their own flaws.

                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      There are plenty of reports of French assistance for the Israeli nuclear program, distinct from assistance for an Israeli nuclear weapons program. I have not argued that Israel received direct assistance for a nuclear warhead, but that Israel and Pakistan both were at the receiving ends of nuclear technology sourced from the West and China.
                      If you want to go that route, Canada gave India her nukes. The US gave the UK and France theirs. Russia gave China hers.

                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      I am sure you would agree that a fully functioning nuclear weapons program is not merely about designing a functioning warhead, and requires a nation to reasonably master all the associated technology and processes of producing the necessary fuel used in the warhead. The publicly available reports I have read indicate that Israel did receive assistance from European sources for its civilian nuclear program.
                      If it were that easy, Pakistan would have a functional arsenal in 1998, North Korea would have 100 nukes. And I would not be doubting the existence of an Israeli thermonuclear design.

                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      The argument that I am making here is that Pakistan is accused of proliferating nuclear technology to other nations, but that proliferation was overwhelmingly for technology such as centrifuges etc. which have a use in civilian nuclear programs, and current members of the NSG have proliferated far more nuclear technology (China apparently a bomb design, given the incomplete blueprints provided by the Libyans) than Pakistan, so why continue with the canard that Pakistan has the worst proliferation record in the world?
                      There are no nuclear weapons trade outside the N5 and even dual use technology is traded amongst NSG members themselves. To date, no dual use technology has ever been sold to India nor has India requested such.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        You can be certain that the Pakistanis have worked or are still working on correcting their own flaws.

                        If you want to go that route, Canada gave India her nukes. The US gave the UK and France theirs. Russia gave China hers.

                        If it were that easy, Pakistan would have a functional arsenal in 1998, North Korea would have 100 nukes. And I would not be doubting the existence of an Israeli thermonuclear design.

                        There are no nuclear weapons trade outside the N5 and even dual use technology is traded amongst NSG members themselves. To date, no dual use technology has ever been sold to India nor has India requested such.
                        I apologize if I was not clear in my previous posts, but my argument about the West, Russia and China being far bigger proliferators of nuclear technology, compared to Pakistan, was made in the context of transfers of technology for centrifuges and various other aspects of a nuclear program other than the warhead itself - of course that is excluding the data provided by the Libyans that indicates China provided a non-functioning nuclear warhead design to either Pakistan or Pakistan and Libya. The whole point of my argument is that the AQ Khan network is being used as to bolster the 'Pakistan is the worlds worst nuclear proliferator' canard to justify unequal treatment of Pakistan at the NSG, despite the fact the history's biggest nuclear technology proliferators are already a part of the NSG.

                        If the NSG was really concerned about nuclear proliferation, controls over trade in dual use technology and requirements for strict international inspections of all NSG related trade would probably be far more useful.
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          I apologize if I was not clear in my previous posts, but my argument about the West, Russia and China being far bigger proliferators of nuclear technology, compared to Pakistan, was made in the context of transfers of technology for centrifuges and various other aspects of a nuclear program other than the warhead itself - of course that is excluding the data provided by the Libyans that indicates China provided a non-functioning nuclear warhead design to either Pakistan or Pakistan and Libya.
                          It was a CICH-4. Hardly non-functioning.

                          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          The whole point of my argument is that the AQ Khan network is being used as to bolster the 'Pakistan is the worlds worst nuclear proliferator' canard to justify unequal treatment of Pakistan at the NSG, despite the fact the history's biggest nuclear technology proliferators are already a part of the NSG.
                          Extremely misleading. Nuclear trade is conducted amongst NPT members, all legally allowed by both the NPT and the NSG. All designed to avoid a nuclear weapons trade while allowing a nuclear energy trade.

                          AQ Khan is all about weapons trade - PERIOD.

                          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          If the NSG was really concerned about nuclear proliferation, controls over trade in dual use technology and requirements for strict international inspections of all NSG related trade would probably be far more useful.
                          They are. Why do you think Iran is so much trouble? And why Iran went to Pakistan to get her stuff?
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 29 Nov 12,, 16:13.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            Supporting/sheltering terrorists groups such as the Baloch terrorist groups (sheltering Bugti)....
                            They did that 'coz Pakistan was hiding OBL, the only difference was was Bugti was a freedom fighter, and OBL was a global terrorist and friend of Musharraf.

                            ... and the TTP (sheltering the TTP/Mullah FM)
                            He is your dirt that you can't handle...the US has nothing to do with him.

                            Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              It was a CICH-4. Hardly non-functioning.
                              I used the term 'non-functioning' in reference to the the available information suggesting that the design was 90-95% complete and missing some of the critical electronics.

                              Extremely misleading. Nuclear trade is conducted amongst NPT members, all legally allowed by both the NPT and the NSG. All designed to avoid a nuclear weapons trade while allowing a nuclear energy trade.
                              Then what is the basis for NSG opposition to the Chinese proposal to construct nuclear reactors in Pakistan?

                              AQ Khan is all about weapons trade - PERIOD.
                              Yet aside from the incomplete CICH-4 design, AQ Khan's network was not involved in any direct nuclear weapons design related assistance or exports. Centrifuges and other technologies with use in civilian nuclear programs is what his network was primarily involved in, though I agree that some/most of the technology he proliferated might have been dual use.

                              They are. Why do you think Iran is so much trouble? And why Iran went to Pakistan to get her stuff?
                              Then why is the US/NSG officially opposed to the proposed Chinese nuclear reactor construction in Pakistan, given that all the proposed NPP's will be under IAEA safeguards?
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                                They did that 'coz Pakistan was hiding OBL, the only difference was was Bugti was a freedom fighter, and OBL was a global terrorist and friend of Musharraf.
                                Please take a look at the thread title and the previous posts on this thread - there is no evidence that Pakistani institutions were complicity in sheltering OBL or even knew where he was - contrast this to the US's own leaked diplomatic cables that clearly show high level US, Afghan and UN officials talking about Bugti's presence in Afghanistan and discussing Pakistani concerns about Baloch terrorists in Afghanistan.
                                He is your dirt that you can't handle...the US has nothing to do with him.
                                He has been hiding in Afghanistan - the US is the major military force occupying Afghanistan and therefore the responsibility for his presence there falls on the US.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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