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  • #91
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I wish India all the best. I really do. If she succeeds, that means a new level of technology that the world can exploit and India can benefit.

    But the sad truth is that Fast Breeder is an expensive and very possibly a losing bet. Other countries have looked into it and deemed it unprofitable.

    Maybe India got an inside track, have some piece of inside knowledge that no one else came up ... but she has not produced a profitable method to date despite over 15 years of research.

    There is some promise to Indian research ... but don't you find it odd that no one else is taking it up?

    But any sale of technology includes IPR. India to date cannot sell her own version of Windows even though Microsoft was extremely late in getting an Indian patten.

    If it's better than American products, buy them. That has always been the case.
    True India cannot sell nuclear technology abroad but at least India can satisfy the most pressing needs of India and its population without sacrificing its national security interests. Besides the demand for nuclear energy in India is too great for India to start exporting nuclear technology abroad. Believe me, there are countries who would love to get around NSG safeguards and they are not even part of NSG.

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    • #92
      You want to see what the indian media really is, check out this funny interview. This will give a glimpse about the kind of role the it played during the indo-US nuke deal.

      And India was Sold ..... (Part 3) - YouTube

      The guy in the red is a member of the hindu nationalist party, BJP. Both of them are making two different lines of arguments. The red guy is quoting from the agreement text and the interviewer is quoting "those quotes which are not quoted it the text".

      Sadly, I see this sort of elitist english speaking interviewers making this sort of foolish arguments all the time on the indian news channels. Someone needs to shut them down but the only way it could happen is if there is a regime change.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        You're not reading me. Prior to signing of the NPT, the Chinese had no problems selling ring magnets or other restricted materials such as heavy water to India. The bureaucracy was not in place either in oversight nor knowledge of restrictions amongst both the businesses and the overseeing authorities.
        I understand what your argument is, but where I disagree is with your interpretation of the CRS report that indicates Chinese leadership expressing 'ignorance about the NPT violations committed by Chinese entities in exporting restricted nuclear technology to Pakistan'. You are arguing that the 'ignorance' was related to bureaucratic issues rather than a deliberate violation of the NPT - would you be able to provide any sources that argue in favor of your interpretation of the Chinese violations in greater detail?

        These are warhead blueprints! Not ring magnets nor heavy water.
        Sure, just like the warhead blueprints provided to Pakistan by China - both nations provided nuclear weapons technology to other nations while not being part of the NPT.

        Of course it does. I don't take everything AQ Khan said to be the truth but once supported by an outside source, in this case, Henderson's Pakistani General, it meant that AQ Khan had no need to know and still had access.
        I agree that it was a massive failure in terms of security, but you should understand that AQ Khan was in a unique position by virtue of being the main individual responsible for running the network that obtained nuclear technology for the Pakistani nuclear program. His reputation and 'larger than life' image in Pakistan gave him a lot more influence and access than he deserved. But, as I pointed out, Pakistan, reportedly in cooperation with the US, has developed significant nuclear controls since then, and any negotiations with the NSG for an exemption would obviously require Pakistan to satisfy the international community that those controls are robust and will prevent another AQ Khan like incident in the future.

        The 123 Agreement is null and void once India tests. So does American support for India's NSG exemption and all materials would be withdrawn if India tests.
        If India's 'nuclear test ban' is linked to the 123 agreement, I personally would have no issues with a similar condition in a hypothetical NSG waiver for Pakistan - so, why the US refusal to not even start the ball moving in terms of negotiations on these various issues?
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
          If India's 'nuclear test ban' is linked to the 123 agreement, I personally would have no issues with a similar condition in a hypothetical NSG waiver for Pakistan - so, why the US refusal to not even start the ball moving in terms of negotiations on these various issues?
          It doesn't work that way. The laws of basic commerce applies here.

          If they(US) give you(pakistan) something, what can you give them in return?

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          • #95
            Originally posted by anil View Post
            It doesn't work that way. The laws of basic commerce applies here.

            If they(US) give you(pakistan) something, what can you give them in return?
            Individual agreements with NSG member States would follow that principle, but to engage in negotiations leading to individual agreements requires an NSG exemption to begin with.

            The focus on the US is not necessarily because Pakistan would purchase technology directly from the US, but because US approval for an NSG exemption is necessary.
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              US approval for an NSG exemption is necessary.
              That was exactly my question. The US has the leverage to give pakistan an NSG exemption, but the question is, what can pakistan give the US in return?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by anil View Post
                That was exactly my question. The US has the leverage to give pakistan an NSG exemption, but the question is, what can pakistan give the US in return?
                Increased commitments on safeguards and inspections along with more regulated trade, and greater cooperation from Pakistan on regional issues since such a step would indicate to Pakistan that the US does actually mean what it says when it talks about a long term partnership with Pakistan and accepting its status as a nuclear weapons State.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  Increased commitments on safeguards and inspections along with more regulated trade, and greater cooperation from Pakistan on regional issues since such a step would indicate to Pakistan that the US does actually mean what it says when it talks about a long term partnership with Pakistan and accepting its status as a nuclear weapons State.
                  Alright
                  Do you think the pakistani state can sell it?
                  How do you know what the US wants?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                    Not when it comes to national security or national interests. National interests trumps intellectual rights and there have been legal precedents here in the US and in Europe. Come on you know better than that. Ever heard of corporate espionage? You have western powers spying on each other and stealing each other trade secrets and etc.
                    Yes and they're taken to court and fine the bejeezus out of them. Microsoft can serve as the example.

                    However, the NSG Agreement is restricted to the civilian sector. You have a hard time convincing anyone that nationals security is at risk.

                    You also would have an extremely hard time to find a piece of French Nuclear technology without American patents in them.

                    I'm sure you can get by with Russia but the strange thing is that Russia offerred to grandfather all these exemptions before the NSG enacted the new rules. Enrichment technology is now off the table vis-a-vi non-NSG members though Russia is making the arguement that India has a blanket exemption (which I'd be careful because it's dependent on Putin's mode at the moment). But the point is that India did not take up Russia's grandfather offers.

                    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                    Indian courts will not place American interests and rights over the interests of India's national security. You should also know that. As for safeguards, that is why India is not a willing buyer of American technology. They just signed the 123 agreement to get around the NSG legalities and trade with Russia and France. USA was never India's intended supplier but Russia and France.
                    Whatever the case, the lack of sales has a lot to do with Indian legal protections not up to par vis-a-vi the rest of the NSG. What Russia and France were offerring is not what India wants. Otherwise, they would have accepted both Russian and French offers by now. The rest of the NSG is making it perfectly clear that they will sell to India but only on their terms ... and that would include no test.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                      True India cannot sell nuclear technology abroad but at least India can satisfy the most pressing needs of India and its population without sacrificing its national security interests. Besides the demand for nuclear energy in India is too great for India to start exporting nuclear technology abroad. Believe me, there are countries who would love to get around NSG safeguards and they are not even part of NSG.
                      I've been arguing for years that India would be better served if you clean up your power grid first. Your transmission losses are horrendous, never mind straight theft. Getting more nuclear reactors before cleaning your powergrid would mean those reactors would be sitting idle with the lines cannot handle the power transmissions.

                      Taking look at your current power outputs, recovering even half of your losses would give you time to avoid the NSG altogether.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Whatever the case, the lack of sales has a lot to do with Indian legal protections not up to par vis-a-vi the rest of the NSG. What Russia and France were offering is not what India wants. Otherwise, they would have accepted both Russian and French offers by now. The rest of the NSG is making it perfectly clear that they will sell to India but only on their terms ... and that would include no test.
                        India is buying French and Russian reactors. Agreements are already in place. More, importantly the fuel for these reactors is going to be imported. This is even more important for India than technology. India doesn't have too much Uranium, and whatever it does have needs to run the indigenous PHWR's which produce Plutonium.

                        The fuel for the Areva EPRs and the Russian VVER-1200 reactors could not be imported by India before the NSG exemption AFAIK. The only thing the French and Russians have a problem with is India's new liability law which makes Foreign suppliers liable in case of any disaster. Otherwise they are ready to sell reactors and India wants to buy them. It is only GE and co. which has lost out till now and there were some grumblings in the US about the 123 agreement not having any benefits for the US if India doesn't buy American reactors.
                        Last edited by Firestorm; 05 Dec 12,, 19:20.

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                        • I was speaking about grandfathering of the NSG exemption.

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                          • The india US civilian nuclear deal was an agreement between india and USA. The agreement was made for a full nuclear co-operation aka complete NSG waiver

                            According to the deal, in 2008, the NSG lifted all restrictions on india

                            But in 2011, the NSG reimplemented the restriction on india that prohibited ENR sales to it because it was not a signatory to NPT

                            The deal got breached so the india US nuclear trade went in limbo

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                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              I've been arguing for years that India would be better served if you clean up your power grid first. Your transmission losses are horrendous, never mind straight theft. Getting more nuclear reactors before cleaning your powergrid would mean those reactors would be sitting idle with the lines cannot handle the power transmissions.

                              Taking look at your current power outputs, recovering even half of your losses would give you time to avoid the NSG altogether.
                              That is an extremely valid point applicable even more so in the case of Pakistan - most analysts agree that Pakistan's power shortages are not so much due to a lack of capacity, but due to a huge amount of circulating debt owed to the companies generating power as well as companies providing the fuel to the generating companies. Transmission line losses due to an outdated and inefficient system along with theft are yet another major issue, not to mention the fact that in its current economic state Pakistan would probably not be able to even finance NPP's from China. The quest for an NSG exemption has other less tangible rationale behind it.
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                              Comment


                              • Let me get this straight.

                                You want something you can't use; don't need; can't afford; will only hinder you; invite legal spies into your nuclear facilities; interview your nuclear scientists including weaponeers (to make sure everything is kosher) ... just so that you keep up with the Jones in India?

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