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US Assessment - Pakistan unaware of Laden's Location

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    That said, I am fine with the mods merging this thread with another if they desire, but perhaps you and Tronic could respond to the US Assessment instead of wringing your hands over forum housekeeping?
    Actually, the other thread has the same exact discussion going, and that is my reason for questioning opening a new thread over this.

    Anyhow, show me anyone here who has claimed that there is evidence that Pakistan was complicit?

    Infact, the "US assessment" which you have bolded and underlined, clearly indicates that there is no evidence showing that the Pakistanis knew where Bin Laden was. It does not state that Pakistan was 'not' complicit in sheltering Bin Laden. World of a difference here.

    Taking that one quote and saying that Pakistan was not complicit is a stretch. (You failed to post a link, so here it is: Pakistan was unaware of bin Laden’s location, US assessment concludes – The Express Tribune).

    That said, the whole issue is about trust. We don't have the intelligence to prove that Pakistan was complicit in sheltering Laden, but do we trust that Pakistan was not? That's a whole another question. Trust and perceptions, if you wish to change them, can only be done by actively aligning towards the same goals. Pakistan has historically long been in bed with the Taliban, and it's continued reluctance to take action against Mullah Omar, fight against the Afghan Taliban, or associate groups, like the Haqqanis, do not help it in gaining trust in the world.
    Last edited by Tronic; 16 Nov 12,, 19:55.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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    • #17
      Lol, last edited at 00.25

      It's a tie with you, Tronic :)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
        Actually, the other thread has the same exact discussion going, and that is my reason for questioning opening a new thread over this.
        Again, leave the hand-wringing over forum housekeeping to the mods and admins - the report post and PM features on the forum work I take?
        Anyhow, show me anyone here who has claimed that there is evidence that Pakistan was complicit?

        Infact, the "US assessment" which you have bolded and underlined, clearly indicates that there is no evidence showing that the Pakistanis knew where Bin Laden was. It does not state that Pakistan was 'not' complicit in sheltering Bin Laden. World of a difference here.

        Taking that one quote and saying that Pakistan was not complicit is a stretch. (You failed to post a link, so here it is: Pakistan was unaware of bin Laden’s location, US assessment concludes – The Express Tribune).

        That said, the whole issue is about trust. We don't have the intelligence to prove that Pakistan was complicit in sheltering Laden, but do we trust that Pakistan was not? That's a whole another question. Trust and perceptions, if you wish to change them, can only be done by actively aligning towards the same goals. Pakistan has historically long been in bed with the Taliban, and it's continued reluctance to take action against Mullah Omar, fight against the Afghan Taliban, or associate groups, like the Haqqanis, do not help it in gaining trust in the world.
        'Trust and perceptions' can be, and often are, colored by prejudices and biases, therefore 'trust and perceptions' are not a substitute for facts and evidence, which are clearly lacking when it comes to establishing any sort of Pakistani institutional culpability in sheltering OBL.

        The thing is that when all else fails, certain members on this forum keep defaulting to the argument that 'Pakistan is guilty because it will lose a popularity contest', and as I have pointed out before, if you want to limit your arguments to that level, then just start a poll and be done with it on your end.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
          'Trust and perceptions' can be, and often are, colored by prejudices and biases, therefore 'trust and perceptions' are not a substitute for facts and evidence, which are clearly lacking when it comes to establishing any sort of Pakistani institutional culpability in sheltering OBL.
          Why would your greatest ally and your sole greatest benefector be prejudiced and biased against you? A little bit of introspection would be nice before pointing fingers all the time.

          The thing is that when all else fails, certain members on this forum keep defaulting to the argument that 'Pakistan is guilty because it will lose a popularity contest', and as I have pointed out before, if you want to limit your arguments to that level, then just start a poll and be done with it on your end.
          Doesn't make sense, AM. Pakistan only looses the popularity contest because it is deemed to be associated with the enemy, not the other way around. The main issue here is again, as I said before, of trust. Nothing more, nothing less. Pakistan has done nothing to gain that trust, but it has done much to erode it over the past decade.

          As for debating facts; we have already concluded that the fact is that we don't have any evidence to prove Pakistani culpability in sheltering Bin Laden. The fact is, we don't know. It is not, "Pakistan did not shelter Bin Laden". Do you believe that you are debating facts here? All I see is your own personal opinion, over an already established fact.
          Last edited by Tronic; 16 Nov 12,, 23:46.
          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            Your latter statement, as I have argued before, is reflective of a lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics and weak governance in Pakistan.
            So we're going with hideously incompetent. Well I think we knew that already.

            What cracks me up is all the Pakistani hand-wringing about the security of Pak nuclear weapons...as if the Bin Laden raid could easily be duplicated to target them as well.
            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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            • #21
              AM, leave Pakistan/PA/ISI aside. Tell me - Why did OBL chose Pakistan out of the whole world to seek shelter for himself and his family?
              sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                So we're going with hideously incompetent. Well I think we knew that already.
                Perhaps, in this particular case, but that does not change the fact that the ISI has neutralized hundreds of other AQ leaders and footsoldiers and without that cooperation and other intelligence input provided by the ISI to the CIA OBL's compound would not have been found. Every intelligence agency has bad days.

                What cracks me up is all the Pakistani hand-wringing about the security of Pak nuclear weapons...as if the Bin Laden raid could easily be duplicated to target them as well.
                The majority of the 'hand-wringing about Pakistani nuclear seapons security' occurs in the West, not in Pakistan.

                Pakistani conerns about a potential US military operation against Pakistani nukes are not so much about Rambo style raids than about targetted airstrikes.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                  AM, leave Pakistan/PA/ISI aside. Tell me - Why did OBL chose Pakistan out of the whole world to seek shelter for himself and his family?
                  A large country of 180 million with endemic corruption, poor governance, significant anti-american sentiment, religiously conservative with an existing presence of multiple religious extremist groups, connections and networks going back to the Afghan Jihad, a large Pakhtun population present in every province. .... It makes perfect sense to have hidden in Pakistan.

                  Now that said, why did terrorist leaders such as Bugti and Mullah FM choose to shelter in Afghanistan, the former with full US knowledge?
                  Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 17 Nov 12,, 18:21.
                  Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                  https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                    Why would your greatest ally and your sole greatest benefector be prejudiced and biased against you? A little bit of introspection would be nice before pointing fingers all the time.
                    I dont see the US as Pakistans greatest ally and benefactor - the US Pakistan relationship is, and always has been, a transactional relationship with Pakistan as the client State.
                    Doesn't make sense, AM. Pakistan only looses the popularity contest because it is deemed to be associated with the enemy, not the other way around. The main issue here is again, as I said before, of trust. Nothing more, nothing less. Pakistan has done nothing to gain that trust, but it has done much to erode it over the past decade.
                    Pakistanis would argue that the erosion in trust was started by the US after its abandonment of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and sanctions against Pakistan once US interests in Afghanistan were served. Pakistan has a acted to protect her interests and hedge her bets given the bitter experience of US betrayal in the past as well as its current double standards with respect to granting India an NSG exemption and sheltering Baluch and TTP terrorists in Afganistan and not taking a categorical position on accepting the Durand as the settled international border.

                    As for debating facts; we have already concluded that the fact is that we don't have any evidence to prove Pakistani culpability in sheltering Bin Laden. The fact is, we don't know. It is not, "Pakistan did not shelter Bin Laden". Do you believe that you are debating facts here? All I see is your own personal opinion, over an already established fact.
                    The facts are that we do know that Pakistan did not shelter OBL since there is no evidence supporting Pakistani institutional complicity and no motive other than absurd conspiracy theories for Pakistan to have sheltered OBL.
                    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      I dont see the US as Pakistans greatest ally and benefactor - the US Pakistan relationship is, and always has been, a transactional relationship with Pakistan as the client State.
                      And the point is? The US ran a weapons supply chain through Iran into Pakistan during the '71 war, supplying crucially needed fighter jets. The large amounts of US aid to Pakistan in the 1960s was the confidence booster for Pakistan to launch Op Gibraltar against India in '65. It was the US's political support of Pakistan at the UN which enabled it to carry out it's misdeeds in East Pakistan. At the end of the day, client state or no client state, you only have your army to blame for reaching such high levels of incompetency. The US did more for you than any other country, decades before the Soviets even stepped foot into Afghanistan.

                      Moreover, Pakistan's economic upswings have also only come at a time of increased US aid to the country.


                      Sixty years of US aid to Pakistan: Get the data | Global development | guardian.co.uk

                      Pakistanis would argue that the erosion in trust was started by the US after its abandonment of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and sanctions against Pakistan once US interests in Afghanistan were served.
                      That's fine. Make that argument from the Pakistani POV; it doesn't explain why others do not trust Pakistan, and that is only due to it's close association with the enemy.

                      Pakistan has a acted to protect her interests and hedge her bets given the bitter experience of US betrayal in the past as well as its current double standards with respect to granting India an NSG exemption and sheltering Baluch and TTP terrorists in Afganistan and not taking a categorical position on accepting the Durand as the settled international border.
                      Glad you admit it. So why whine about "prejudices and biases" against Pakistan, when even you admit that Pakistan and the rest sit on two opposite sides of the fence?

                      As for India getting an NSG exemption; Pakistan is not India, nor did India have an AQ Khan.

                      The facts are that we do know that Pakistan did not shelter OBL since there is no evidence supporting Pakistani institutional complicity and no motive other than absurd conspiracy theories for Pakistan to have sheltered OBL.
                      The fact is the bolded bit. The rest is nothing but your own spin on the fact and your personal opinion. Although I must say, it is amusing to see you stretching this from "Pakistani government complicity" (which even I do not believe) to "Pakistani institutional complicity" to cover the posterior of the army.
                      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                        A large country of 180 million with endemic corruption, poor governance, significant anti-american sentiment, religiously conservative with an existing presence of multiple religious extremist groups, connections and networks going back to the Afghan Jihad, a large Pakhtun population present in every province. .... It makes perfect sense to have hidden in Pakistan.
                        and those are perfect reasons no to trust PAK, and not take seriously anything it says in the mater.
                        "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by omon View Post
                          and those are perfect reasons no to trust PAK, and not take seriously anything it says in the mater.
                          Schooled!
                          “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                          ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            A large country of 180 million with endemic corruption, poor governance, significant anti-american sentiment, religiously conservative with an existing presence of multiple religious extremist groups, connections and networks going back to the Afghan Jihad, a large Pakhtun population present in every province. .... It makes perfect sense to have hidden in Pakistan.

                            Now that said, why did terrorist leaders such as Bugti and Mullah FM choose to shelter in Afghanistan, the former with full US knowledge?
                            Thanks. I think think that pretty much sums it up. No more polls required. ;)
                            sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                              - Why did OBL chose Pakistan out of the whole world to seek shelter for himself and his family?

                              Well the food is good, the locals are nice enough and the rickshaw drivers don't try and rip you off all the time like the rickshaw drivers in India?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by omon View Post
                                and those are perfect reasons no to trust PAK, and not take seriously anything it says in the mater.
                                Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                                Thanks. I think think that pretty much sums it up. No more polls required. ;)
                                Those are reasons for why the country lacks proper governance and why all manner of criminals find it relatively easy to stay on the run, they are not reasons highlighting institutional Pakistani complicity in sheltering OBL.

                                But I understand if you lot have no stomach for real discussion ...
                                Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 19 Nov 12,, 13:22.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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