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  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    DE,

    It's also extremely hard to get any sense into the Indian Media when you have former soldiers who spouts a particular line. I have a particular experience with a Colonel Shukla discussing the T-72 vs the ARJUN.

    There is no doubt that the Indian Army has chosen the T-72 and there is merit to that choice but there is also merit to the ARJUN. But that is neither here nor there. I find it extremely insulting when Colonel Shukla dismissed the efforts of the NATO engineers, gunners, and tankers when he placed NATO's superiority over Soviet tanks in anti-tank aviation.
    It is interesting to note that Col. Shukla eventually made a complete U-turn on the issue and is now one of the biggest supporters of the Arjun in the media (he's a journalist/news reporter now).

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by n21 View Post
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nukes-only-for-strategic-purposes-army-.../900159/
    From your posted article

    The comments come after concern around the globe that Pakistan is strengthening its tactical nuclear missile programme with multiple tests of the 60-km range NASR surface-to-surface missile that is capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

    ...

    Adding to the concerns of a tactical nuclear weapons programme by Pakistan are recent reports that Islamabad currently has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world and could possess 200 warheads in a decade at the current rate. Estimates drawn up in a recent report by US nuclear weapons experts Hans M Kristensen and Robert S Norris indicated that Pakistan already has a stockpile of around 100 warheads, marginally more than India that has 80-100 nuclear weapons.
    It is absolutely infuriating that Indian news media expect foreign military to take them seriously when they make such idiotic claims. No one can afford tac nukes with only 200 weapons in its inventory. What's more, Pakistan is working on rockets with 60 km range while India is working on a 5000km+ range. People really expect us to believe that Pakistan is ahead in rocket technology?

    Translation: India is so far behind Pakistan. Look they got a rocket that can go 60 kms. But we're catching up if not surpassing China. We can hit Beijing very soon.

    The hyprocracy of these double statements is enough for us to pull what's left of my hair out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Both sides of the debate did not come out and state their case, at least not in a way that outside military men can understand. The problem with Indian bridges not being able to support the ARJUN for instance. The opposition stated that very few Indian bridges can handle the beast while the pros state that they won't be using those bridges.

    The entire problem is that neither side wants to admit, the problem is not with Indian bridges. The problem is with Pakistani bridges but no one either side wants to admit that the sole purpose of the ARJUN was to take Paksitani territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tronic
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    DE,

    It's also extremely hard to get any sense into the Indian Media when you have former soldiers who spouts a particular line. I have a particular experience with a Colonel Shukla discussing the T-72 vs the ARJUN.

    There is no doubt that the Indian Army has chosen the T-72 and there is merit to that choice but there is also merit to the ARJUN. But that is neither here nor there. I find it extremely insulting when Colonel Shukla dismissed the efforts of the NATO engineers, gunners, and tankers when he placed NATO's superiority over Soviet tanks in anti-tank aviation.

    I was NOT going to allow an Indian Officer to dismiss several NATO combat arms and I challenged him on it on BR. He ignored my challenge which in turn allowed me to dismiss as a quack.
    I have one uncle who is the CO of one of the armoured regiments in Rajasthan, and through him I got a feel of the Arjun vis-a-vis the T-72. There really can be no comparison at all. The Arjun is a beast, open and comfortable on the inside, very smooth and fully automated ride, automatic gear box, and despite its 60 ton weight, it really takes off! It makes the T-72 look antique. Talking to the tankers on how they liked the Arjun, the reply I got from one was "acha hai bhi, aur nahi bhi" (its a good tank, at the same time, its not). Inquiring further, I believe the only issue they have had with the Arjun is that it is a maintenance intensive tank. They complained that a little problem in the Arjun would halt the entire tank, meanwhile the T-72s and T-90s just keep running no matter how badly you treat them.

    Seeing the Western-Russian doctrinal crossroads the IA finds itself, I believe that the Western tank superiority lies with the NATO engineers and not merely anti-tank aviation. The Arjun punched holes into the T-90 during the trials, and despite that, if the IA is still choosing to keep their Russian styled light-tank doctrine in place, it is only due to their reluctance in upgrading their engineering corps to handle heavier tanks. I see no benefit of the T-72s or T-90s over the Arjun; for the Arjun can not only do everything better than the Ts but can also go further, and go faster.

    Leave a comment:


  • S2
    replied
    Nvishal Reply

    "...Why are you guys talking about me? When did nvishal became a subject of discussion? and what does this say about you?

    What is the logic behind labeling me with negative words and slangs? Is this your idea of an argument? I have not once labelled or called any member in this thread with a negative slang yet you do it with immunity simply because you have been here way longer than me. It seems that intimidation has become argument and assault has become proof..."


    Trust that, until now with myself, you've not been the "...subject of discussion...". I've neither labelled nor called you with any "slang". Below is the sum total of my personal references to you on this thread-

    "...South to north. West to east. Nvishal has his finger on the pulse."

    That was an indirect retort to your seeming belief of a consensus view regarding India's body politic on this issue...or do you dispute suggesting such?

    If not, I'd encourage you to develop a thicker skin along with a better discourse. You appear to need both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    DE,

    It's also extremely hard to get any sense into the Indian Media when you have former soldiers who spouts a particular line. I have a particular experience with a Colonel Shukla discussing the T-72 vs the ARJUN.

    There is no doubt that the Indian Army has chosen the T-72 and there is merit to that choice but there is also merit to the ARJUN. But that is neither here nor there. I find it extremely insulting when Colonel Shukla dismissed the efforts of the NATO engineers, gunners, and tankers when he placed NATO's superiority over Soviet tanks in anti-tank aviation.

    I was NOT going to allow an Indian Officer to dismiss several NATO combat arms and I challenged him on it on BR. He ignored my challenge which in turn allowed me to dismiss as a quack.

    By the same token, Capt Lemontree, Maj DCL, and the Brigadier Ray have all engaged me in detailed analysis of doctrine, battles, and strategic thought. Seriously, it was they who initially showed me just how different they think ... on the same basic information ... that enticed me to look at General Sundarji ... and what a discovery!

    It was General Sundarji, more accurately, his writings, who introduced me to the concept that deterrence is not warfighting.

    Even today when I recall that moment and I still feel it ... WOW!!!!!

    Then, I read idiots like Nvishal!

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by xinhui View Post
    Just saw this


    No threat from China: Top Army officer
    Press Trust of India
    1
    No threat from China: Top Army officer - India News - IBNLive

    Jammu: A top Army Commander on Sunday said he sees no threat from China and there is no reason for any alarm as the situation along the Sino-Indian border in Ladakh sector is calm.

    "The situation remains calm (along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh sector). There is no threat from China," General Officer Commanding-In-Chief, Northern Command, Lt Gen KT Parnaik, said.

    "I do not see any reason for alarm," he told reporters on the sidelines of an Army Day function at Akhnoor, 35-km from Jammu.
    No threat from China: Top Army officer

    On the occasion, the Northern Command Chief presented 71 awards to Army personnel at the Investiture ceremony.

    "What we have on the LAC is transgressions. There are transgressions which have taken place in 2011, which have followed the routine pattern of previous years with some minor changes," Lt Gen Parnaik said.

    "The confidence-building measures are in place. Hence, the situation is very much under control," he said adding Army and ITBP personnel were carrying out surveillance along the border.

    No threat from China: Top Army officer - India News - IBNLive
    Finally they are coming out and stating it. But its been done here many times through reason.

    We have these news shows & op-eds here where people state all sorts of things and the actual implication is left to the layman who is totally incapable of assessing the actual situation. What should they think ? They dont. They just parrot out the same news story to others and it is just that.. a story, with very little critical reasoning whatsoever and before you know it becomes an established fact or conventional wisdom. A more diplomatic way of putting it would be to term it a school of thought but i think thats over the top. Its bollocks nothing more.

    They never have a china watcher on the panel. Why ? because he or she would most likely throw a wet blanket over a hot topic.

    The private media hypes the China angle. The govt media is more restrained. PTI is govt they're the only people i read when its comes to topics of this nature. But both private & govt speak in seperate voices.

    Just look at these replies...

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The Chinese has done the same and on both sides of the border, it is extremely understandable. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to move troops in when needed than to station them and feed them in that miserable rock with zero roads and infrastructures. The increased troop numbers on both sides are nowhere near the border as to not to raise tensions.

    This being said, with the increase of roads and airstrips by both sides also mean more avenues of approach by both sides, hence the need to cover those avenues.

    These are modernization efforts which is perfectly understood by both sides and both sides do their extreme to avoid confrontations, ie scheduling of patrols as to not meet each other and the meeting of officers by both sides to discuss what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behaviour (moving border markers is acceptable but planting a machine gun nest is not).

    If you speak of mobilization, I expect a machine gun nest right beside the border marker. That has not happenned nor likely to happen anytime soon.
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That being said, a toilet is no threat. A bunch of men lining up to use that toilet would signal an increased threat.
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Domes don't worry me. Toilets or kitchen does. You can have 100 domes but with zero toilets, no one is staying there for long. If you have a 1000 toilets, then that's the indication of how many men they expect to stay there.
    Point being how long does anyone stay and how many. Of course.

    Never saw these explanations ever being offered in the media here because they do not see their role as informing. They could appoint a better panel but they don't bother.

    There is no revenue to be made unless its hyped up. And the narrative serves a purpose. If they have any military people or think tank types on the panel then they are angling for more funds from the govt. Might as well as there are many big ticket items on the shopping list for the next decade.

    If they have any politicans from border states they too are angling for the same. To develop infrastructure, expensive infrastructure to build & maintain that they are unable themselves to generate the revenue for that they need the centre to do it for them. So they get the media to do their bidding.

    Leave a comment:


  • n21
    replied
    Since we are on the topic Indian nukes, the Indian Army chief has something to say.

    “Let us be quite clear that nuclear weapons are not for war fighting. They have got a strategic capability and that is where it should end,”

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Bullsh!t
    It is extremely idiotic and damned insulting that a fanboy tells military men how to fight a war ... or worst yet, telling military men that they're too stupid to know how to read the enemy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    Originally posted by nvishal View Post
    Instinctual
    Bullsh!t
    Yes. It's one of the drawbacks of keeping the threshold so high.
    You have thus proved that you have ZERO knowledge about the escalation ladder. Please provide illustrations as why and when would Indian targeteres lob nukes on Chinese territory if there is nuclear exchange between Indian and Pakistan? Provide proof of your argument.
    Yes. And those statements which refused chinese border incursions were what pissed of the indian media into more anti-china tirade. I belive it took the PM's request for the media to calm down.
    It still doesn't changes the fact that the dismissal came right from the horses mouth. I would not take a politicos statement as gospel against such a dismissal.
    What was he doing? Patrolling the McMahon Line?

    btw, @S2, @Deltacamelately, @xinhui
    Why are you guys talking about me? When did nvishal became a subject of discussion? and what does this say about you?
    You are not a debatable subject. You are just sticking yourself out as a chewing toy, unwarranted.
    What is the logic behind labeling me with negative words and slangs? Is this your idea of an argument? I have not once labelled or called any member in this thread with a negative slang yet you do it with immunity simply because you have been here way longer than me. It seems that intimidation has become argument and assault has become proof. I know this thread won't end if I continue relying to you guys. Do whatever you want.
    Yellow answered you fine on this.

    Leave a comment:


  • YellowFever
    replied
    Originally posted by nvishal View Post
    btw, @S2, @Deltacamelately, @xinhui
    Why are you guys talking about me? When did nvishal became a subject of discussion? and what does this say about you?

    What is the logic behind labeling me with negative words and slangs? Is this your idea of an argument? I have not once labelled or called any member in this thread with a negative slang yet you do it with immunity simply because you have been here way longer than me. It seems that intimidation has become argument and assault has become proof. I know this thread won't end if I continue relying to you guys. Do whatever you want.
    It's because you're ignoring reality.

    You can debate with those gentlemen till the cows come home and they will remain civil and courteous.

    But once you begin to ignore FACTS or gloss over highly educated professional guesses to suit your fan-boyish arguments and amateurish guesses, they, along with a vast majority of WAB members lose respects for you and treat you like open game.

    vsdoc 2.0
    Last edited by YellowFever; 20 Jan 12,, 10:13.

    Leave a comment:


  • nvishal
    replied
    What Indian perspective are you hinting at?
    Instinctual

    You mean to say hurling nuclear weapons against China in case of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan is a logical outcome?
    Yes. It's one of the drawbacks of keeping the threshold so high.

    Hello! You just read me.
    Yes

    You explicitely stated that the General Officer lied about PLA incursions, as claimed by a politico.
    Yes. And those statements which refused chinese border incursions were what pissed of the indian media into more anti-china tirade. I belive it took the PM's request for the media to calm down.

    btw, @S2, @Deltacamelately, @xinhui
    Why are you guys talking about me? When did nvishal became a subject of discussion? and what does this say about you?

    What is the logic behind labeling me with negative words and slangs? Is this your idea of an argument? I have not once labelled or called any member in this thread with a negative slang yet you do it with immunity simply because you have been here way longer than me. It seems that intimidation has become argument and assault has become proof. I know this thread won't end if I continue relying to you guys. Do whatever you want.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    S2

    Originally posted by S2 View Post
    Major,

    "What Indian perspective are you hinting at...?"

    Yup. Only a billion plus but you all think exactly the same. South to north. West to east. Nvishal has his finger on the pulse.
    Steve,

    Typical urban boyish rant with an overdose of inflated egos.
    I have seen this typical at PDF, from both sides of the Radcliffe line.

    I feel happy that the lads have some sort of interest and knowledge regarding strategic issues. But the taste get sour when they get adament, disregard facts and fail to educate themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • S2
    replied
    DCL Reply

    Major,

    "What Indian perspective are you hinting at...?"

    Yup. Only a billion plus but you all think exactly the same. South to north. West to east. Nvishal has his finger on the pulse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    nvishal

    Originally posted by nvishal View Post
    No I'm not. I've tried giving you an indian perspective. You are free to agree or disagree.
    What Indian perspective are you hinting at? An Indian politician's perspective? A Bollywood Star's or possibly a Garment trader's from the Palika Market?

    The majority of Indian Military personnel's perspective is contradictory to what you may believe or say.

    All I did was give you a pragmatist interpretation of nuclear proliferation wrt china-pakistan and the logical outcome if indias threshold(nuclear?) was crossed.
    You mean to say hurling nuclear weapons against China in case of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan is a logical outcome?

    When did the indian officers of WAB make a guest appearance between you and me?
    Hello! You just read me.

    I don't follow WAB as much as you like to believe. I'm aware that DCL has some connection with the indian military. I was told that lemontree is also connected. I don't keep a track of their comments so I don't know what exactly I lied about.
    You explicitely stated that the General Officer lied about PLA incursions, as claimed by a politico.

    By the way my friend, Capt. Lemontree is a retired Infantry Officer from the Indian Army. Very well connected.;)
    Last edited by Deltacamelately; 19 Jan 12,, 12:51.

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