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  • #46
    The irony of the whole situation is that the more Putin threaten Europe and exerts pressure against the expansion of the EU and the drift of European nations into the NATO alliance the more incentive there is for those nations to join. The man needs to drink a seriously large cup of 'calm the fuck down ' tea and stop providing them with reasons to seek membership of NATO in the first place.
    Last edited by Monash; 20 Nov 21,, 12:31.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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    • #47
      Finland says debate on NATO membership 'will change' after Russian invasion

      Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin on Thursday said Russia's invasion of Ukraine will change the debate around NATO membership within her country.

      "Finland is not currently facing an immediate military threat, but it is also now clear that the debate on NATO membership in Finland will change," Marin said, YLE News reported.

      Finland has been debating for months whether the country should apply for NATO membership, with Marin saying it would require broad support for the country to move forward with an application.

      Finland and Sweden, who are both not officially members of NATO, will be at a summit the alliance will host Friday.


      Finland's president, Sauli Niinistö, condemned Russia's attack and President Vladimir Putin, saying "the mask has now come off and only the cold face of war is visible," according to YLE.

      Finland has around 80 citizens in Ukraine at the moment, Finish Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto said.

      Finland is one of many countries condemning Putin's attack on Ukraine. As tensions rose between Ukraine and Russia over the past months, debate for NATO membership in Finland increased.

      Russia claims one of the reasons it attacked Ukraine is due to Western countries' willingness to consider Ukraine for NATO membership.
      _________

      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • #48
        It will be interesting to watch how things unfold over the next 12 months with Finland & Sweden. Finland is particularly vulnerable, but the Swedes know that Gotland will be an early target in any war in the Baltic.

        While I'm not necessarily expecting them to join, I won't be shocked if they do. Putin has changed the equation.
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          While I'm not necessarily expecting them to join, I won't be shocked if they do. Putin has changed the equation.
          Yeah I don't think we'll see NATO membership "tomorrow", but like the Finnish PM said, it's a whole new ballgame.
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

          Comment


          • #50
            Russia threatens 'military and political consequences' if Finland, Sweden try joining NATO
            Russia threatened “military and political consequences” against Finland and Sweden on Friday if they attempted to join NATO.

            Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova warned against other countries attempting to join NATO after Russia started a war with Ukraine Thursday.

            “Finland and Sweden should not base their security on damaging the security of other countries and their accession to NATO can have detrimental consequences and face some military and political consequences,”
            Zakharova said in a viral clip of a press conference.

            The ministry later posted the same threat on its Twitter. Finland and Sweden have given significant military and humanitarian support to Ukraine since Russia invaded.

            One pretext Russia has given for attacking Ukraine is that NATO would not give any assurance that Ukraine would not be allowed to join the intergovernmental military alliance.

            Ukraine has been adamant about joining but is now willing to discuss a different status with NATO after hundreds were killed in the first day of fighting the Russians.

            Russia and Ukraine are both sending delegations to Belarus to discuss Ukraine potentially adopting a nonaligned status with NATO.

            The talks come as Russia is closing in on Kyiv, Ukraine's capital city. However, U.S. intelligence says Ukrainians are putting up a better resistance to Russian forces than expected.

            Ukraine has been arming its citizens and telling them to create firebombs to resist Russia.
            ________

            I'm sure this will convince Finland and Sweden to see the light and do the right thing....as Russia sees it.
            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

            Comment


            • #51
              Majority of Finns support Nato membership, poll shows

              A majority of Finns are in favour of joining Nato for the first time in the Nordic country’s history as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine pushes the once neutral state and its neighbour Sweden towards the military alliance.

              A poll for Finland’s state broadcaster Yle showed 53 per cent of Finns supported joining Nato, 28 per cent were against and 19 per cent did not know. The last time Yle conducted such a poll in 2017 only 19 per cent were in favour of joining while 53 per cent were against.


              Former Finnish prime minister Alex Stubb called it a “historic shift”. It follows a similar rise in support for Nato membership in Sweden.

              Both Finland and Sweden are militarily non-aligned but have not been neutral since joining the EU and have the closest partnerships with Nato of any non-member countries. Nato recently said it would share its intelligence on Ukraine with them, in addition to conducting exercises and exchanging information before Russia’s invasion.

              The Yle opinion poll published on Monday showed the majority in favour of Nato membership increased in the event that either the country’s political leadership advocated it or if Sweden joined the alliance. There is at present no political majority in either country in favour of membership. But even prominent Finnish opponents of joining Nato concede they could be won over if geopolitical tensions continued to build in the region.

              Analysts said the increase in support for Nato in Finland and Sweden represented one of the main negative consequences for Russian president Vladimir Putin over his war against Ukraine. “The unthinkable might start to become thinkable,” former Swedish prime minister Carl Bildt said about the Finnish poll.

              Russia’s foreign ministry repeated last week its message that “Finland’s accession to Nato would have serious military and political repercussions”. Highlight text Finnish and Swedish politicians have brushed aside such warnings, reiterating in the past two months that they have the option of joining Nato as sovereign states.

              The Baltic countries in particular have long argued in favour of membership for Finland, with its highly trained military that beat the Soviet Union in the 1939-40 winter war, and Sweden, whose island of Gotland in the Baltic Sea is regarded as a strategic outpost.

              Rihards Kols, head of the foreign affairs committee of Latvia’s parliament, told the Financial Times: “Their membership would only improve regional security and the ability to deter the aggressor. Whenever I met my Finnish and Swedish colleagues I always ask: ‘When are you joining Nato?’”

              Finland and Sweden have both broken with tradition to send military equipment to Ukraine. Sweden is sending 5,000 anti-tank missiles, the first time it has sent defence equipment abroad since it helped Finland in the winter war. “This is a huge change in mindset,” added Kols.

              Finland’s centre-left government said on Monday night that it would send 2,500 assault rifles together with 150,000 rounds as well as 1,500 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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              • #52
                Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                I'm sure this will convince Finland and Sweden to see the light and do the right thing....as Russia sees it.
                I guess Putin never read or heard of Dale Carnegie. Maybe that's his problem.

                However, Putin has talked about a greater Russia and Finland was a part from 1809 through 1917.
                Last edited by tbm3fan; 02 Mar 22,, 07:37.

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                • #53
                  I rather they stay neutral. They gave us a hell of a lot of flexibility during Afghanistan when we need someone who isn't us but can act in our interest.
                  Chimo

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                  • #54
                    Swedish defence minister calls Russian violation of airspace 'unacceptable'

                    STOCKHOLM (Reuters) -Four Russian fighter jets briefly entered Swedish territory over the Baltic Sea on Wednesday, the Swedish Armed Forces said, sparking a swift condemnation from Sweden's defence minister.

                    Two Russian SU27 and two SU24 fighter jets briefly entered Swedish airspace east of the Swedish island of Gotland in the Baltic Sea, Sweden's Armed Forces said in a statement, adding that Swedish JAS 39 Gripen jets were sent to document the violation.

                    "The Russian violation of Swedish airspace is of course completely unacceptable," Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist told news agency TT. "It will lead to a firm diplomatic response from Sweden. Swedish sovereignty and territory must always be respected."

                    Sweden's Armed Forces said the situation was under control and that the incident showed preparedness was good.

                    "In the light of the current situation we view this event very seriously," it said on its website,

                    Sweden on Sunday said it would send military aid, including 5,000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine, the first time since 1939 that Sweden has sent weapons to a country at war.
                    _______
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Finland's people now strongly back joining NATO, poll says, a massive political shift that would enrage Russia
                      A survey of people in Finland found that a majority wanted the country to join NATO after Russia invaded Ukraine.

                      The survey by the Finnish Business and Policy Forum Eva think tank found that 60% of people supported Finland joining NATO, a massive jump from previous years. Eva polled 2,074 people between March 4 and March 15.

                      Finland shares a long border with Russia and was once part of the Russian Empire. After it gained independence, it was invaded by the Soviet Union in 1939 but fought back and was not defeated.

                      The country has for decades maintained a careful balance between Russia and Western countries, which involved avoiding NATO membership.

                      At the time of the last Eva survey in 2021, most Finns seemed to support that position, with only 34% backing NATO membership.

                      But Russia's invasion of Ukraine, another non-NATO country, prompted a change — almost doubling support for NATO membership.


                      Ilkka Haavisto, the research manager at Eva, said of the results: "Russia has shown that it does not respect the integrity of its neighbors.

                      "The war in Ukraine has concretely shown what the horrors of a defensive war on Finland's own territory would be and made it clear that NATO countries cannot use their military forces to help defend a nonaligned country."


                      Russia has threatened Finland should it decide to pursue membership.

                      Earlier this month, an official with the Russian foreign ministry warned of "serious military and political consequences" if Finland or its neighbor Sweden tried to join.

                      Russian President Vladimir Putin used the possibility of NATO expanding further eastward as a reason for his invasion of Ukraine. He framed the invasion as an act of self-defense against the alliance's growth.

                      Finnish President Sauli Niinistö said on Sunday that applying for NATO membership would come with the "major risk" of escalation in Europe, but he said the country wanted to find ways to improve its security situation.

                      Sanna Marin, Finland's prime minister, said earlier this month that the country's politicians would have a conversation about NATO membership: "We're moving quickly, although these discussions will be thorough."
                      ________
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Finland takes steps to consider NATO membership

                        Finland's government expects to submit a national security analysis, which could lead to a NATO membership process, to the country's parliament by mid-April, Reuters reported Monday.

                        Per Reuters, the country of 5.5 million, which shares an 800-mile border with Russia, began moving aggressively toward membership after Russia invaded aspiring NATO member Ukraine and threatened "serious military and political consequences" if Finland attempted to join the alliance.

                        In Finland, public support for NATO membership stood at 60 percent in March, a 34 percent increase since the autumn of 2021, according to Newsweek. Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said Russia is "not the neighbor we thought it was" and that Russia's invasion of Ukraine and threats against Finland have changed the countries' relationship in an "irreversible" way.

                        Although Finland is not now a NATO member, Reuters explains, it maintains close ties with the alliance. Finnish miliary units aided in NATO operations in Afghanistan and Kosovo, participate in frequent military exercises with NATO forces, and form part of the NATO Response Force.

                        After World War II, during which Finland fought against the Soviet Union, Finland declined to join NATO, instead pursuing a policy known as the Paasikivi-Kekkonen doctrine. This policy "positioned Finland as a neutral country during the Cold War while maintaining good relations with" the Soviets, Wilson Center scholars Robin Forsberg and Jason C. Moyer write.

                        In Sweden, a country that has not fought a war since 1814, support for joining NATO has also increased, but Sweden is not moving toward membership nearly as rapidly as Finland, Reuters reports.
                        ________
                        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          Finland takes steps to consider NATO membership
                          _________________
                          In Sweden, a country that has not fought a war since 1814, support for joining NATO has also increased, but Sweden is not moving toward membership nearly as rapidly as Finland, Reuters reports.
                          I think Sweden's next move depends on what Finland does. Finland is much more keen on joining NATO, but the attitude in Sweden is more "we will if Finland does".

                          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            Finland takes steps to consider NATO membership

                            Finland's government expects to submit a national security analysis, which could lead to a NATO membership process, to the country's parliament by mid-April, Reuters reported Monday.

                            Per Reuters, the country of 5.5 million, which shares an 800-mile border with Russia, began moving aggressively toward membership after Russia invaded aspiring NATO member Ukraine and threatened "serious military and political consequences" if Finland attempted to join the alliance.

                            In Finland, public support for NATO membership stood at 60 percent in March, a 34 percent increase since the autumn of 2021, according to Newsweek. Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said Russia is "not the neighbor we thought it was" and that Russia's invasion of Ukraine and threats against Finland have changed the countries' relationship in an "irreversible" way.

                            Although Finland is not now a NATO member, Reuters explains, it maintains close ties with the alliance. Finnish miliary units aided in NATO operations in Afghanistan and Kosovo, participate in frequent military exercises with NATO forces, and form part of the NATO Response Force.

                            After World War II, during which Finland fought against the Soviet Union, Finland declined to join NATO, instead pursuing a policy known as the Paasikivi-Kekkonen doctrine. This policy "positioned Finland as a neutral country during the Cold War while maintaining good relations with" the Soviets, Wilson Center scholars Robin Forsberg and Jason C. Moyer write.

                            In Sweden, a country that has not fought a war since 1814, support for joining NATO has also increased, but Sweden is not moving toward membership nearly as rapidly as Finland, Reuters reports.
                            ________
                            I wonder in light of Russia's poor performance if public opinion has shifted at all.

                            But also I often wonder if maybe the Finns just want some payback for The Continuation War!
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                              I wonder in light of Russia's poor performance if public opinion has shifted at all.
                              I was thinking about that too...but then we can see the horrors still able to be committed by hordes of ill-equipped, ill-led Russians.

                              Finland and Sweden can see that NATO membership would've stopped the Russians cold at the border and almost entirely spared Ukrainian cities and citizens from Russian barbarities.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                                I was thinking about that too...but then we can see the horrors still able to be committed by hordes of ill-equipped, ill-led Russians.

                                Finland and Sweden can see that NATO membership would've stopped the Russians cold at the border and almost entirely spared Ukrainian cities and citizens from Russian barbarities.
                                Yeah...I think you are right.

                                A good lesson for all.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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