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  • Originally posted by Monash View Post

    Hmm, there could still be consequences. He might have finally backed down on this issue but the nature of the beast hasn't changed and the other members of NATO and the EU know it. I haven't seen anything to indicate this is true but behind the scenes it wouldn't surprise me if the other member States and both Executives aren't continuing with work on reforms designed to prevent further repetitions of this kind of behavior by 'rogue' members in the future.

    Plus of course now far right parties in Hungary are claiming that if Ukraine eventually falls to Moscow Hungary has the right to assert a claim over and occupy parts of Ukraine near it's own borders that are inhabited by Hungarian minorities. I wonder how long it's going to be before Orban try's to jump on that bandwagon.
    Oh, I don't doubt for a minute that the EU & NATO are looking for more ways to sideline & possibly punish 'rogue' members, but that is tommorrow's problem. For now Orban hasn't suffered any serious consequences, so he'll take the win. He is going to keep sailing as close to the wind as he can while hoping not to get blown over.

    I don't think he will so much jump on that bandwagon as wink and nod and hint in its direction knowing full well what the consequences will be if he does more than that. A revanchist Hungary will not only find itself friendless, it might just lead to an unlikely reconcilliation between NATO & Serbia/Yugoslavia, which has already realized that being Russia's friend isn't that useful any more. Virtually every nation bordering Hungary could potentially be the subject of a territorial claim. They will shut that shit down VERY quickly, which I suspect Orban knows.
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    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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    • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

      Now it's Orban's turn to yank the rug away
      Orbán's party boycotts a session of Hungary's parliament to further stall Sweden's bid to join NATO


      General view of the Hungarian parliament as Fidesz and KDNP stay away from the vote on the ratification of Sweden's NATO membership, in Budapest, Monday, Feb. 5, 202. As Hungary remains the last NATO ally to ratify Sweden's bid to join the alliance, the Hungarian parliament held an emergency parliamentary session on Monday, Feb. 5 to vote on the Nordic country's accession. Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has promised that Hungary will act "at the first possible opportunity" to approve Sweden's bid, but his party boycotted the session.

      BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Lawmakers from the party of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán boycotted an emergency session of parliament on Monday where a vote was scheduled to place Sweden's bid to join NATO on the legislative agenda, adding to 18 months of delays that have angered Hungary's allies.

      The governing Fidesz party, which holds an absolute majority in parliament, has stalled Sweden’s bid since July 2022, alleging that Swedish politicians have told “blatant lies” about the condition of Hungary’s democracy.

      After Turkey's parliament voted to approve Sweden's accession in January, Hungary became the last of the military alliance's 31 members not to have done so, leading its allies to pressure the nationalist government to hold a vote without delay. Orbán told NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg last month that he would urge his party to ratify the bid “at the first possible opportunity.”

      Monday's session in parliament was supported by six opposition parties, but Fidesz lawmakers didn't attend, scuttling the attempt to place a vote on the legislature's schedule.

      Several ambassadors from NATO member countries attended the proceedings, including U.S. Ambassador David Pressman. In brief comments to the media following the session, Pressman said that the United States looks forward to "watching this closely and to Hungary acting expeditiously.”

      "Sweden’s NATO accession is an issue that directly affects the United States' national security and affects the security of our alliance as a whole," he said. “The prime minister pledged to convene parliament to urge parliament to act at its earliest opportunity. Today was an opportunity to do that.”

      A bipartisan group of U.S. lawmakers last week called on Orbán to immediately ratify Sweden's bid, saying patience with Hungary is “wearing thin” as it continues to delay its approval.

      In a separate statement, U.S. Sen. Ben Cardin, a Maryland Democrat and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, raised the prospect of imposing sanctions on Hungary for its conduct, and called Orbán “the least reliable member of NATO.”

      Following the session on Monday, Agnes Vadai, a lawmaker with the liberal Democratic Coalition party, said that Orbán's conduct has “put Hungary into a very humiliating position,” and that there was “no reason” for his government to have blocked Sweden's NATO membership.

      “I think that it’s very personal for Orbán, and it’s also very irrational what is he doing despite all the pressure that’s coming,” she told The Associated Press. “He himself should understand that (Sweden's membership) is going to serve the interests and the security of the Hungarian society.”

      Hungarian officials have indicated that Fidesz lawmakers won't support holding a vote until Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson accepts an invitation by Orbán to visit Budapest to negotiate on the matter. Kristersson has said that he will make the trip, but only after Hungary approves his country's NATO membership.

      Fidesz said in a statement on Monday that ratification of Sweden’s NATO accession can take place during a regular session of parliament, “but we are expecting the Swedish prime minister to visit Hungary first.”

      “If this is an important issue for the Swedes, the Swedish prime minister will obviously come to Budapest,” the party said.

      Hungary's parliament is scheduled to reconvene on Feb. 26. But Vadai, the lawmaker, said that there was no guarantee that Orbán's party would commit to a swift approval.

      “I’m not sure whether the opening session will start with the Swedish ratification, unfortunately,” she said.
      _________

      Looks like Orban hasn't folded quite so easily.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • Three times in about a month, Orban has been forced to eat crow (Be publicly proven a liar!), in front of the whole world!
        First time was when his eighteen month; oft stated, declaration that Hungary would not be the last NATO nation to ratify Sweden’s acceptance in NATO.
        Oops! He is last, and he is alone! First mouth full of crow!
        Last week, trying to bamboozle the EU into cutting aid to Ukraine, but folded at the wire! Second order of crow!
        As for today, he had stated that the Hungarian Parliament would ratify the acceptance at its first sitting. His political opponents in Parliament; to save him and his Fidesz crony’s the trouble of convening a session, did it for them!
        They boycotted the meeting!!! Third mouth full of crow!
        The difference between him and Erdogan’s delaying tactics was that Erdogan always had a price! Kurds, lifting of sanctions, aircraft…something! Orban on the other hand never demanded anything, happy to follow like a cur, the big dog.
        Now alone, he has come with a demand!
        He wants the Swedish PM to come to Budapest for …negotiations! What negotiation?
        What he wants is a ply to his ego!
        The Swedish PM coming hat in hand, on his knees, should play well with his constituents! As well as his BFF in the Kremlin!
        I guess that he is finding out that riding two horses can be hard sometimes!
        When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

          Orbán's party boycotts a session of Hungary's parliament to further stall Sweden's bid to join NATO


          General view of the Hungarian parliament as Fidesz and KDNP stay away from the vote on the ratification of Sweden's NATO membership, in Budapest, Monday, Feb. 5, 202. As Hungary remains the last NATO ally to ratify Sweden's bid to join the alliance, the Hungarian parliament held an emergency parliamentary session on Monday, Feb. 5 to vote on the Nordic country's accession. Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has promised that Hungary will act "at the first possible opportunity" to approve Sweden's bid, but his party boycotted the session.

          BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Lawmakers from the party of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán boycotted an emergency session of parliament on Monday where a vote was scheduled to place Sweden's bid to join NATO on the legislative agenda, adding to 18 months of delays that have angered Hungary's allies.

          The governing Fidesz party, which holds an absolute majority in parliament, has stalled Sweden’s bid since July 2022, alleging that Swedish politicians have told “blatant lies” about the condition of Hungary’s democracy.

          After Turkey's parliament voted to approve Sweden's accession in January, Hungary became the last of the military alliance's 31 members not to have done so, leading its allies to pressure the nationalist government to hold a vote without delay. Orbán told NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg last month that he would urge his party to ratify the bid “at the first possible opportunity.”

          Monday's session in parliament was supported by six opposition parties, but Fidesz lawmakers didn't attend, scuttling the attempt to place a vote on the legislature's schedule.

          Several ambassadors from NATO member countries attended the proceedings, including U.S. Ambassador David Pressman. In brief comments to the media following the session, Pressman said that the United States looks forward to "watching this closely and to Hungary acting expeditiously.”

          "Sweden’s NATO accession is an issue that directly affects the United States' national security and affects the security of our alliance as a whole," he said. “The prime minister pledged to convene parliament to urge parliament to act at its earliest opportunity. Today was an opportunity to do that.”

          A bipartisan group of U.S. lawmakers last week called on Orbán to immediately ratify Sweden's bid, saying patience with Hungary is “wearing thin” as it continues to delay its approval.

          In a separate statement, U.S. Sen. Ben Cardin, a Maryland Democrat and chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, raised the prospect of imposing sanctions on Hungary for its conduct, and called Orbán “the least reliable member of NATO.”

          Following the session on Monday, Agnes Vadai, a lawmaker with the liberal Democratic Coalition party, said that Orbán's conduct has “put Hungary into a very humiliating position,” and that there was “no reason” for his government to have blocked Sweden's NATO membership.

          “I think that it’s very personal for Orbán, and it’s also very irrational what is he doing despite all the pressure that’s coming,” she told The Associated Press. “He himself should understand that (Sweden's membership) is going to serve the interests and the security of the Hungarian society.”

          Hungarian officials have indicated that Fidesz lawmakers won't support holding a vote until Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson accepts an invitation by Orbán to visit Budapest to negotiate on the matter. Kristersson has said that he will make the trip, but only after Hungary approves his country's NATO membership.

          Fidesz said in a statement on Monday that ratification of Sweden’s NATO accession can take place during a regular session of parliament, “but we are expecting the Swedish prime minister to visit Hungary first.”

          “If this is an important issue for the Swedes, the Swedish prime minister will obviously come to Budapest,” the party said.

          Hungary's parliament is scheduled to reconvene on Feb. 26. But Vadai, the lawmaker, said that there was no guarantee that Orbán's party would commit to a swift approval.

          “I’m not sure whether the opening session will start with the Swedish ratification, unfortunately,” she said.
          _________

          Looks like Orban hasn't folded quite so easily.
          Seems NATO and the EU will have to squeeze his nuts a little tighter then, won't they. In all seriousness though how much longer can Orban delay without NATO calling him out publicly and taking some kind of action? If the Hungarian Parliament has to reconvene as reported on the 26th there's only two ways it can play out. Either the vote on approving Swedish accession comes up somewhere near the top of the order of business and gets passed quickly or else he continues playing silly games and keeps on delaying it. If he does that? Well it immediately becomes blatantly obvious to everyone whats going on and he leaves NATO with no choice but to go public with some kind of reaction he definitely won't like.

          Unless he's a complete egomaniac Orban has to see he comes out of this looking better by just giving Swedish membership the tick now than he does from trying to delay it any further. (On the other hand his actions to date could be a good indicator of just how seriously pissed off/worried his old friend Putin is about how much Sweden's accession to NATO will change Russia's strategic situation in the Baltic. Which is hugely and not in a good way! )
          Last edited by Monash; 07 Feb 24,, 00:59.
          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

          Comment


          • Regarding Orban...it sucks to suck.

            Time to ratchet up some sanctions against him and his family. And maybe have the ICC look at a few things...
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Monash View Post

              Seems NATO and the EU will have to squeeze his nuts a little tighter then, won't they. In all seriousness though how much longer can Orban delay without NATO calling him out publicly and taking some kind of action? If the Hungarian Parliament has to reconvene as reported on the 26th there's only two ways it can play out. Either the vote on approving Swedish accession comes up somewhere near the top of the order of business and gets passed quickly or else he continues playing silly games and keeps on delaying it. If he does that? Well it immediately becomes blatantly obvious to everyone whats going on and he leaves NATO with no choice but to go public with some kind of reaction he definitely won't like.

              Unless he's a complete egomaniac Orban has to see he comes out of this looking better by just giving Swedish membership the tick now than he does from trying to delay it any further. (On the other hand his actions to date could be a good indicator of just how seriously pissed off/worried his old friend Putin is about how much Sweden's membership of NATO will change Russia's strategic situation in the Baltic. Which is hugely and not in a good way! )
              But what kind of leverage does NATO have that would compel Orban to come to heel?
              In his dust-up with the EU last week, he apparently let his common-sense overrule his egomania. When he realized that the EU Commission had in the past; and could do so again, cut payouts to Hungary.
              But that would envisage that the NATO Charter contains similar leverage? Or, even the means to kick a recalcitrant member out of the alliance?



              When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Amled View Post

                But what kind of leverage does NATO have that would compel Orban to come to heel?
                In his dust-up with the EU last week, he apparently let his common-sense overrule his egomania. When he realized that the EU Commission had in the past; and could do so again, cut payouts to Hungary.
                But that would envisage that the NATO Charter contains similar leverage? Or, even the means to kick a recalcitrant member out of the alliance?
                There are others here who could give you a much better idea but a guess? Access to NATO support services for Hungary's armed services might be a start. Things like access to joint training and maintenance programs, access to NATO level intelligence, the sidelining of senior Hungarian Officers at planning conferences, that kind of thing. Individually? I suppose certain members states could agree (behind closed doors) to delay the delivery of essential spare parts to Hungary that are produced by firms based in their countries. Purely due to an unfortunate set of logistical and/or bureaucratic delays of course.

                Hopefully someone with actual NATO experience can give you a more detailed/specific answer.
                Last edited by Monash; 07 Feb 24,, 06:38.
                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Monash View Post

                  There are others here who could give you a much better idea but a guess? Access to NATO support services for Hungary's armed services might be a start. Things like access to joint training and maintenance programs, access to NATO level intelligence, the sidelining of senior Hungarian Officers at planning planning conferences, that kind of thing. Individually? I suppose certain members could agree (behind closed doors) to delay the delivery of essential spare parts to Hungary that are produced by firms based those countries. Purely due to an unfortunate set of logistical and/or bureaucratic delays of course.
                  Bureaucracy wielded by bureaucrats!
                  A pretty potent means of persuasion!
                  I’ve seen it used at local government level, and it worked there, so why not at a macro level?

                  When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                  Comment


                  • At a start, withdrawal of Croat and Italian combat assets to the Hungarian Battle Group, requiring Turkey to replace at least two companies and HQ assets. Revoking Hungary's NATO Top Secret Access. Revoking Hungary's EURCOM priviledges. Cancel Officer Exchange Programs and Officer Educational Programs. Demanding payments for Officer Educational Programs. Stop junkyard salvage, ie scrounging NATO scrapyards for spare parts.

                    Worst comes to worst, refuse to accept Hungarian troops into our formations, ie Hungarian officers cannot command our troops and vice versa.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Actually, I don't know what this shit is all about. We don't need Hungary's ratifications according to the text.

                      Article 10


                      The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.
                      Article 11


                      This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications.3
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Be great if its true, They could hold a grand accessions ceremony attended by representatives from all of NATO members who have ratified the agreement. This also gives them an excuse not to invite Hungary. Oh dear, that would be embarrassing.
                        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                        Comment


                        • NATO allies warn Hungary not to hold up Sweden's membership as US patience wears thin

                          BRUSSELS (AP) — U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan said that he and his NATO counterparts cautioned Hungary on Wednesday against further delaying Sweden’s membership in the military alliance, and he warned that patience in Washington has its limits.

                          Lawmakers from the party of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán boycotted an emergency session of parliament on Monday where a vote was scheduled to place Sweden’s bid to join NATO on the legislative agenda, adding to 18 months of delays that have angered Hungary’s allies.

                          The governing Fidesz party, which holds an absolute majority in Hungary's parliament, has stalled Sweden’s bid since July 2022, alleging that Swedish politicians have told “blatant lies” about the state of Hungarian democracy. The party insists that Sweden’s prime minister must come to Hungary first.

                          “We heard security adviser after security adviser say that it’s past time for Sweden to get in, and to directly address the representative from Hungary,” Sullivan told reporters after a meeting of the organization’s top security officials at NATO headquarters in Brussels.

                          Sullivan said that he and his colleagues had impressed upon Hungary that “it’s a matter of credibility and obligation that they take the necessary steps” to complete the parliamentary procedures to ratify Sweden’s accession.


                          Sweden, along with neighboring Finland, set aside decades of military nonalignment to seek protection under NATO’s collective security umbrella after Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022.

                          Finland has since joined the trans-Atlantic alliance. The country, along with the other 30 allies, must all agree that Sweden should stand among NATO’s ranks. Hungary is the only member standing in its way.

                          Sullivan said that he wouldn't “stand here today and make particular threats, or speculation about steps that we would take down the road, but of course our patience on this can’t be unlimited either.”

                          He said the U.S. will “continue to watch it carefully, but hope that there is a constructive resolution to this issue in the very near term.”


                          Orbán, who has broken ranks with NATO allies by adopting a Kremlin-friendly stance toward Russia’s war in Ukraine, has said that he invited Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson to Budapest to discuss “future cooperation in the field of security and defense as allies and partners.”

                          Unless another emergency session of Hungary's parliament is called to debate Sweden’s bid, the assembly is due to sit for its regular session on Feb. 26.
                          _________
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                          Comment


                          • https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ay-2024-02-20/

                            Swedish PM to visit Hungary before ratification of NATO bid
                            So the sleaze-ball won!
                            Orban wanted Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson to come to Budapest for “negotiations” before he would accede to Sweden’s application to NATO!
                            What “negotiation” `?
                            What’s to negotiate? The NATO treaty is carved in stone, so it’s either yes or no!
                            But what Orban want’s is a PR-media circus, where the Swedish PM come hat in hand to ask his help!
                            So on Friday we’ll probably see an example of where diplomacy and politics at its highest level, is synonymous with hypocrisy at its highest level.
                            Forced to be nice to someone you’d rather spit in the eye!






                            When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                            Comment


                            • He best be careful. If Orban wants a media circus he can of course have one. But the thing is he still has the to share the spotlight with Sweden's PM and if Kristersson doesn't like what hes hearing? A curt sentence or two from him will be all it will take to rain on Orban's little ego parade. Kristersson is only going because it's a small price to pay to finally get Swedens's secession to NATO sighed off by mini Putin. But there's only so much humble pie he'll be prepared to eat given accession is a done deal now. Whether Orban likes it or not.
                              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                He best be careful. If Orban wants a media circus he can of course have one. But the thing is he still has the to share the spotlight with Sweden's PM and if Kristersson doesn't like what hes hearing? A curt sentence or two from him will be all it will take to rain on Orban's little ego parade. Kristersson is only going because it's a small price to pay to finally get Swedens's secession to NATO sighed off by mini Putin. But there's only so much humble pie he'll be prepared to eat given accession is a done deal now. Whether Orban likes it or not.
                                Yahh..!
                                But it’s easy to see how tomorrow that stuffed-up little Mussolini wanna-be, will strut out from the dog-and-pony show “negotiations’” with the Swedish PM, to the planned press conference!
                                Where he’ll try to convince all and sundry that thanks to Hungary, the last hurdle to Swedish acceptance in NATO has been removed!!!!
                                As if he hadn’t been the hurdle for the last eighteen months!


                                When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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