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  • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
    I think it would be more apt to describe Finnish participation as "being nearby" and happening to fix some Soviet forces, though this fixing was not matter of intentional strategy on their part. The Finns seemed only interested in restoring their pre-war borders.
    As the saying goes, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Whatever the original intent, it was obvious by 1943 that the Soviets were coming and the strategic intent was then how to best deal with the oncoming juggernaut.
    Chimo

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    • https://www.euractiv.com/section/def...dens-nato-bid/

      So there’s a good chance that new F-16’s; together with upgrade kits for his existing aircraft, may be Erdogan’s price for accepting Sweden into the NATO alliance!
      Forgive me, but isn’t it a bit of a bitter pill to swallow, having to literally bribe a “fellow ally” in the alliance, into accepting something that in everyone’s optics only will strengthen the Alliance?
      When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Amled View Post
        https://www.euractiv.com/section/def...dens-nato-bid/

        So there’s a good chance that new F-16’s; together with upgrade kits for his existing aircraft, may be Erdogan’s price for accepting Sweden into the NATO alliance!
        Forgive me, but isn’t it a bit of a bitter pill to swallow, having to literally bribe a “fellow ally” in the alliance, into accepting something that in everyone’s optics only will strengthen the Alliance?
        Pretty galling if you ask me, yeah. On the other hand, once they're in, they're in for good and Turkey can't say jack schitt about it.

        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

          Pretty galling if you ask me, yeah. On the other hand, once they're in, they're in for good and Turkey can't say jack schitt about it.
          Plus while he may have gotten the F-16s he wanted if Erdogan wants to keep them flying he still has to 'play nice' with NATO. I also assume there will be firm limitations on who Erdogan can show off his new toys to including letting them have the chance to lift up the hood and poke around.
          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

          Comment


          • Sweden greenlights anti-Nato protest despite Turkey warning
            A fully legal and authorized demonstration is not something that the budding autocratic Turkish state apparently finds palatable!
            When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

            Comment


            • Nato secretary general says Sweden has 'fulfilled obligations' to members

              Jens Stoltenberg, Nato’s secretary general, called on Ankara to drop its opposition to Sweden’s bid to join the defence alliance, hoping Stockholm’s accession would be finalised “as soon as possible”.

              Pressure is building on President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to give Sweden’s Nato membership his blessing ahead of a summit planned for July in Vilnius, Lithuania.

              “Membership will make Sweden safer but also make Nato and Turkey stronger,” Mr Stoltenberg told journalists in Istanbul on Sunday after meeting with Mr Erdogan and his newly appointed foreign minister Hakan Fidan, who was previously head of the intelligence agency.

              “I look forward to finalising Sweden’s accession as soon as possible,” he said.

              On Saturday, Mr Stoltenberg attended the inauguration of Mr Erdogan, who was re-elected to serve another five years in a lavish ceremony joined by dozens of world leaders in the capital Ankara.

              Nato member Turkey has dragged its feet over admitting Sweden to the military alliance. Hungary and Turkey are the only two Nato countries yet to ratify Sweden’s membership. Sweden and Finland dropped decades of military non-alignment and applied to join the alliance in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Finland formally joined Nato in April.

              Mr Erdogan has accused Sweden of being a haven for terrorists, especially members of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), a group blacklisted by Turkey and its Western allies.

              “Sweden has taken significant concrete steps to meet Turkey’s concerns,” Mr Stoltenberg said. “This includes amending the Swedish constitution, ending arms embargo, stepping up counter-terrorism operations including against the PKK,” he said. “Sweden has fulfilled its obligations.”

              Tobias Billstrom, Sweden’s foreign minister, also said that Stockholm had fulfilled “all the commitments” to join Nato and urged Turkey and Hungary to allow his country into the alliance. Ankara is especially displeased with anti-Turkey and anti-Erdogan protests in Stockholm. Swedish authorities allowed a “No to Nato, No Erdogan Laws in Sweden” demonstration to go ahead in the city centre on Sunday.

              “Freedom of assembly and expression are core values in democratic societies. But we should remember why these are taking place,” Mr Stoltenberg said. “Organisers of these demonstrations want to block Sweden’s accession to Nato and undermine its collaboration with Turkey against terrorism and weaken Nato,” the head of Nato added. “We should not allow them to succeed.”
              ______
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

              Comment


              • https://www.voanews.com/a/newly-reel...n/7123618.html

                Newly Reelected Erdogan Seeks to Balance Moscow with Washington
                His stance on Sweden (Whatever that eventually is!) notwithstanding,
                I still maintain that an ally who is openly playing both ends against the middle, is not a trustworthy ally!

                When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                Comment


                • Turkey won't back Swedish NATO bid unless it stops anti-Turkish protests, Erdogan says
                  https://www.reuters.com/world/turkey...an-2023-06-14/
                  The Swedes have done everything but kiss the ass of that forked-tongued two-faced SOB of a shyster!!!
                  They rescinded the sanctions that they; and other nations, imposed on Turkey.
                  (Sanctions that were imposed when the Turks attacked the Kurds that were fighting alongside the American led Coalition fighting ISIS !)
                  They add mended; and toughened, their Bill of Rights, to take a harder stance against; (The PKK was already forbidden, in Sweden!!!!) prohibited organizations.
                  Hell, they even tossed the forked-tongued two-faced SOB, a piece of meat!!!
                  One of the Kurds that he demanded extradited, was unfortunate enough, not only to be wanted in Turkey for being a PKK member. But the poor schmuck was also wanted as a hashish smuggler in Turkey; a criminal charge!!! Giving the Swedes a fig leaf!
                  Yet not enough!!!
                  So maybe what is left is the F-16 deal with the US.
                  Hope the American administration is canny enough when dealing with a forked-tongued two-faced SOB, to see a Turkish accept of Sweden in the alliance.
                  Then F-16’s can be discussed!!!


                  When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                  Comment


                  • Pressure on Hungary to play nice regarding Sweden and NATO.

                    GOP senator blocks arms sale to Hungary for stalling Sweden’s NATO bid (msn.com)


                    The Washington Post

                    GOP senator blocks arms sale to Hungary for stalling Sweden’s NATO bid


                    Story by John Hudson, Loveday Morris • Yesterday 2:00 AM

                    GOP senator blocks arms sale to Hungary for stalling Sweden’s NATO bid© Julia Nikhinson/Reuters

                    Sen. James E. Risch, the top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, is halting a $735 million U.S. arms sale to Hungary as punishment for the country’s refusal to approve NATO membership for Sweden, a rare move aimed at pressuring Budapest into greenlighting the military alliance’s expansion ahead of a major summit next month.

                    In a statement to The Washington Post, Risch (Idaho) said Hungary must allow Sweden into NATO if it wants the arms package, which includes 24 HIMARS rocket launcher batteries, and more than 100 rockets and pods along with associated parts and support.

                    The decision to slam the brakes on new arms sales to Budapest demonstrates the growing anger toward Hungary by NATO backers like Risch, who rarely holds up arms sales to countries in any part of the world.

                    “For some time now, I have directly expressed my concerns to the Hungarian government regarding its refusal to move forward a vote for Sweden to join NATO,” he said.

                    “The fact that it is now June and still not done, I decided that the sale of new U.S. military equipment to Hungary will be on hold,” he added.

                    All significant arms sales require the chair and ranking members of the Senate and House foreign affairs committees to give clearance and approval before the sale is publicly noticed by the State Department. Risch’s objection prevents the State Department from being able to move forward in the sales process.

                    A State Department spokesperson declined to comment on the matter, saying the department does not comment on “pending arms sales.”

                    A spokesman for the Hungarian government did not respond to a request for comment.

                    Risch’s maneuvering comes as NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg visited the White House on Tuesday in an effort to coordinate strategies for the NATO summit this summer in Lithuania, where President Biden and Stoltenberg hope to announce progress on Sweden’s bid to join the military alliance.

                    Sweden and Finland’s decision to apply for NATO membership has been widely viewed as a blow to Russian President Vladimir Putin, who justified his invasion of Ukraine by underscoring the threat the military alliance poses to his country.

                    U.S. officials say Putin did not anticipate the West would hold together in support of Ukraine as it has, but they worry that the decision by Hungary and Turkey to delay ratification for Sweden’s bid, which requires the support of all of the alliance’s existing members, risks exposing it as divided and ineffective.

                    The U.S. ambassador to Hungary, David Pressman, said: “The United States will continue to work tirelessly towards closer collaboration with our ally. However, we have real concerns about strategic decisions Hungary is making — and those concerns are shared broadly.”

                    Relations between the United States and Hungary have become increasingly combative in recent months, as Budapest delays and complicates the Western response to Russia’s war in Ukraine.

                    Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban holds a news conference in Budapest last year.© Attila Kisbenedek/AFP/Getty Images

                    As a veto-wielding member of both NATO and the 27-member European Union, Hungary holds outsize international influence. Prime Minister Viktor Orban has blocked European defense funding for Ukraine, stymied sanctions packages and deepened energy ties to Russia, leading to accusations that Budapest is working as Putin’s Trojan horse.

                    Hungary’s continued blocking of Sweden’s NATO membership bid has caused exasperation among allies. Speaking in Qatar last month, Orban said relations between Hungary and Sweden must improve before Stockholm’s bid for membership is approved.

                    Washington has also expressed alarm over Budapest’s willingness to expand and deepen ties with Moscow, taking a harder line in April when the U.S. Treasury imposed sanctions on officials at the Hungary-based International Investment Bank, an unusual move against an entity linked to an ally.

                    At the time, Pressman, the U.S. ambassador, expressed exasperation that the Hungarian government had “dismissed the concerns of the United States government” regarding the bank that Washington said was being used as a base for Russian espionage.

                    Orban struck a more conciliatory tone following the public censure, describing the United States as a “friend and ally.”

                    Risch’s move against the Orban government stands in contrast to the embrace the far-right prime minister has received from some U.S. conservatives, in particular, those who hosted him at last year’s Conservative Political Action Conference. At the event, Orban received loud applause as he designated liberals as a common enemy. “They hate me and slander me and my country, as they hate you and slander you for the America you stand for,” he said.

                    Hungary has not publicly announced its request to purchase HIMARS, but Hungarian newspaper Szabad Europa reported in January that Budapest was mulling a purchase, citing defense ministry officials. The rocket systems, credited with elevating Ukraine’s ability to thwart Russia’s advance, are already in possession or on order for many of the countries on NATO’s eastern flank. Poland took its first delivery of M142 HIMARS last month and is aiming to buy around 500 more.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • Sweden sets sights on joining NATO by next month but may be delayed, PM says

                      STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson said on Wednesday that Sweden still wanted to join NATO before or at its summit in Vilnius next month although it was not certain it would be able to do so by then.

                      Sweden and Finland abandoned decades of military non-alignment in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine last year, seeking greater security by joining NATO. Finland became an alliance member in April but the process has been slower for Sweden.

                      Sweden has set its sights on joining at the alliance's July 11-12 summit and while it has strong support from other members including the United States, both Turkey and Hungary have so far held back from ratification.

                      "Sweden will become a NATO member," Kristersson said in an interview with public service broadcaster SVT.

                      "Nobody can promise it will happen specifically in Vilnius or right ahead of Vilnius, even if that has been our ambition all along. And that is an ambition we share with every other NATO country as well."

                      Turkey has said Sweden harbours members of what it considers terrorist groups - a charge Sweden denies - and has demanded their extradition as a step toward ratifying Swedish membership. It has also expressed outrage over anti-Turkish demonstrations held in the Nordic country.

                      Meanwhile, Sweden has said freedom of speech is firmly enshrined in its constitution and that it has lived up to all the requirements set out in an agreement with Turkey and Finland struck in Madrid a year ago.

                      Swedish and Turkish officials met on June 14 for what Sweden's chief negotiator characterised as good talks, and are due to hold another high level meeting in Brussels organised by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg before the Vilnius summit.

                      "We've also said that we respect that it is Turkey that makes Turkish decisions and it is good we now have another meeting ... and maybe we can address the odd question mark ahead of the Vilnius summit in that kind of conversation," Kristersson said.
                      ______
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/28/europe/sweden-quran-protest-intl/index.html

                        Turkey condemns Quran burning protest in Stockholm as a ‘heinous act’
                        Great, just friggin great! More ammo for Erdogan to use!!!
                        Yes, Swedish legislation allows this sort of demonstration; as the pyro-manic book burner very well knows.
                        The legislation is the same here in Denmark. But the last time the nut-job tried to play with matches over here, the police stepped in using the excuse: That they couldn’t vouch for his safety!
                        The Swedes could do the same.
                        Playing dodge-ball with your country’s Bill of Rights, would probably leave a bad taste in someone’s mouth, but sometimes needs must
                        Last edited by Amled; 28 Jun 23,, 22:41.
                        When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                        Comment


                        • https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/10/...-way-to-turkey

                          Erdoğan: Ankara could approve Sweden's NATO bid if EU 'opens way' to Turkey


                          So the other shoe finally hits the floor!!!
                          First it was Sweden and Finland that were victims of Erdogan’s extortions, if they wished to join NATO.
                          Then the Yanks were drawn into his game, when he linked the F-16’s to his demands.
                          Now he is drawing the entire EU into his extortion plans!!!
                          Turkey has had their EU application gathering dust somewhere in Brussels. So I guess that he feels that he can use Sweden as a wedge to get approval.
                          Me, I say give in to his extortion!
                          Then play his own game in erecting the civil rights hurdles that Turkey would have to comply with for the application to be approved.
                          This last hurdle of Erdogan, might also explain Hungary’s intransigence. In that the EU has been withholding large multibillion EU pay outs to Hungary, because of their civil rights conflicts with the EU charter.
                          I guess that Hungary’s Orban fells that if Turkey can get some concessions from the EU he; like the cur dog following a Big Dog, can pick up some scraps!


                          When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                          Comment


                          • Great idea! Now if only NATO and the EU were the same organization it would be a done deal. Erdogan knows this! NATO does not have the political or legal authority to compel the EU to except such a deal. So the answer is no. Time to move on to the next impossible request while reminding him that the US and other NATO members can 'delay' decisions critical to Turkey in exactly the same way he's been delaying Sweden's membership application for NATO.
                            Last edited by Monash; 10 Jul 23,, 15:54.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                              Great idea! Now if only NATO and the EU were the same organization it would be a done deal. Erdogan knows this! NATO does not have the political or legal authority to compel the EU to except such a deal. So the answer is no. So time to move on to the next impossible request while reminding him that the US and other NATO members can 'delay' decisions critical to Turkey in exactly the same way he's been delaying Sweden's membership application for NATO.
                              Finland and Sweden are both EU members! I’m sure that their EU Commissioners would be more than happy to “instruct” any Turkish applicant in the EU’s guiding principles of democracy and civil rights!!!!
                              Come Wednesday we’ll know if Erdogan; that forked tongued double dealing SOB, is pro-NATO or pro-Russian!
                              Because, there is a broad consensus that Sweden would be welcome addition to NATO’S northern flank, and as such a thorn in Russia’s side.
                              Blackballing them again would clearly show his true allegiance.



                              When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                              Comment


                              • https://twitter.com/jensstoltenberg/...84703060324359

                                Erdogan agrees to pass the Sweden to NATO to the Turkish assembly for ratification.

                                He said he would guarantee passage!
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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