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  • Is it permitted to feel just a little bit schadenfreude over the litany of woes besetting Erdogan?
    On the home front, problems on the political scene, an economy that’s heading for a crash,
    now he’s going head to head in a diplomatic row with nearly a dozen of his allies!


    https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/node/229836
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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    • Finland, Sweden promise to join NATO together in united front to Turkey

      HELSINKI (Reuters) -Finland and Sweden will joint NATO at the same time, their prime ministers said on Friday, presenting a united front to Turkey which has raised questions about both their applications.

      The Nordic neighbours asked to join the alliance in May in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but ran into objections from Turkey which accused the two of harbouring groups it deems terrorists.

      Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said on Friday Turkey's president had told her he had more questions for Sweden than for her country. But she said she would not leave Sweden behind in the process.

      "It is very important for us, of course, that Finland and Sweden would join NATO hand in hand," Marin told reporters at a joint press conference in Helsinki with her Swedish counterpart.

      Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said as recently as Oct. 6 that his country still opposed Sweden's bid.

      Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson, who took office last week, said: "We have been taking every step, so far, hand in hand and none of us have any other ambition."

      He said he would meet Erdogan soon. "It's completely legitimate that Turkey gets confirmation that Sweden is doing what Sweden has committed to do within the framework of the agreement," he added.

      Swedish daily Aftonbladet on Friday cited sources saying that Turkey had invited Kristersson to a bilateral meeting in Ankara, probably on Nov. 8.

      Kristersson's spokesperson did not immediately respond to requests for a comment.
      _______

      Even if they don't join NATO, they'll sign a couple dozen defense pacts that are basically NATO without the name.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
        Even if they don't join NATO, they'll sign a couple dozen defense pacts that are basically NATO without the name.
        They're both members of the EU, that already covers that.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by kato View Post
          They're both members of the EU, that already covers that.
          True but they clearly want something more/different for whatever reason.

          Like NATO, the EU has a mutual defence clause but trust appears low
          Just like NATO, the European Union has its own mutual defence clause.

          Yet Sweden and Finland's decision to join the transatlantic alliance in the wake of Russia's war in Ukraine appears to show that trust in the bloc's version is flimsy.

          The EU's Mutual Defence Clause — Article 42.7 in the Treaty of Lisbon — was approved in 2007 and has been in force since 2009.

          It states that "if an EU country is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other EU countries have an obligation to aid and assist it by all means in their power."

          It came 60 years after the creation of NATO and its collective defence clause — Article 5 — which provides that "an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies".

          Both have been triggered only once in reaction to terrorist attacks — 9/11 for NATO and the November 13, 2015 attacks in Paris in the case of Article 42.7.

          EU's clause stronger?
          "On the face of it, they look very similar," Aylin Matlé, research fellow in the Security and Defence Programme at the German Council on Foreign Relations think tank, told Euronews. "But in fact, the wording of Article 42.7 is much stronger in my opinion in comparison to NATO's Article 5."

          The reason is the word "obligation" which implies that other EU member states must provide assistance of some sort. Yet, "that doesn't mean that anything has to follow, that military action has to follow automatically," Matlé pointed out.

          Article 42.7 stipulates that while the obligation of mutual defence is binding on all EU countries, "it does not affect the neutrality of certain EU countries and is consistent with the commitments of EU countries which are NATO members."

          This means that the type of assistance provided, if any, is still up to the political leadership in individual member states.

          This, too, is somewhat similar to NATO.

          Article 5 states that any ally will "in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence" take "individually and in concert with other parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force."

          EU's clause seen as 'politically weaker'
          Twenty-one EU member states are part of NATO and a third of them — Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Portugal — are founding members of the transatlantic military alliance.

          The remaining ones joined in the following decades with the last one, Croatia, officially becoming a member months before the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force.

          Sweden and Finland, the latter of which shares a 1,340 kilometre-long border with Russia, could soon join the fold. Public opinion on joining the military alliance shifted dramatically in the two traditionally neutral countries in the weeks after Russia launched its unprovoked attack on Ukraine and both have now formally put in membership bids.

          Both are EU member states and are thus theoretically covered by Article 42.7.

          According to Rafael Loss, coordinator for Pan-European Data Projects at the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) despite its strong rhetoric, Article 42.7 "is considered by most EU member states, and a lot of them are members of the NATO alliance, as politically a bit weaker."

          "There is sort of general, at least implicit, agreement that NATO is in charge of territorial defence in Europe and the EU does crisis management to some extent and this is not exclusive of course," he added. The fear in Stockholm and Helsinki, Loss said, is that if Russia were to attack, the EU's response would simply be "much less than what NATO is capable of".

          NATO is military alliance only
          The difference between the two polities is that NATO is a military alliance only with regular joint exercises as well as multinational battlegroups and important capabilities including fighter jets and warships under direct NATO command already deployed across Europe.

          The EU, however, was created as a political and economic alliance and is only just really starting to sketch common security and defence infrastructures.

          This process was accelerated by the war in Ukraine with leaders backing the Strategic Compass policy in late March that plans for the establishment of an EU Rapid Deployment Capacity of up to 5,000 troops, more regular live exercises on land and at sea and the possibility for member states to jointly invest in the development of military capabilities.

          The Commission also unveiled last month proposals for an EU framework for joint defence procurement to allow member states to quickly and more cheaply replenish stockpiles sent to Ukrainian authorities, replace Soviet-era equipment and plug military capability gaps, especially air and missile defence systems.

          According to Matlé, Sweden and Finland used France's invocation of Article 42.7 in 2015 as a test case, especially given that neither was seriously considering NATO membership at the time.

          "Those two countries were actually very keen on sort of not only the invocation but also moving ahead and moving the EU's common security and defence policy further. And I guess it's you know, you could argue that the balance sheet of the EU’s common security and defence policy is sobering," she added, highlighting the lack of a common command structure and lack of military capabilities at the EU's disposal.

          Who if not France and Germany?
          The other issue is leadership.

          NATO is dominated by the US which has tens of thousands of troops — some under NATO command, some under bilateral agreements with individual EU member states — dotted across Europe as well as significant capabilities.

          Some smaller eastern countries have been wary of giving the EU a strong defence mandate, fearful that this might lead to a pull-back by Washington, especially as the Union tends to be slow to respond to crisis due to the unanimity requirement.

          The EU has imposed sixth rounds of sanctions on Russia since its invasion on February 24 but huge cracks in the bloc's unity appeared during negotiations for the latest package which took four weeks.
          The amount of military aid each member state has also provided Ukraine has varied considerably with Germany criticised heavily for its initial slow response while French President Emmanuel Macron has profoundly irked eastern counterparts with his call not to humiliate Russia.

          "The major question that we're facing in the EU context is that there has been a significant drop in trust vis-a-vis the German and French governments because they're not leading the Western response to this war and in fact, are hesitating," Loss said with the US, UK and eastern European countries including Poland and the Baltics seen as the ones providing Ukraine with the support it needs to defend itself.

          "This is exactly what is currently sinking European support for any idea of, you know, European defence sovereignty because who would lead such an effort if it's not France and Germany that at this moment are failing to pull their weight?," he concluded.
          _________
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

          Comment


          • Turkey Stalls Sweden’s NATO Bid Ahead of Stoltenberg Visit

            (Bloomberg) -- Turkey isn’t satisfied with promises made by Sweden to crack down on Kurdish separatists and is unlikely to lift its objections to the nation’s NATO membership bid unless it takes more definitive steps, Turkey’s ruling AK Party spokesman Omer Celik said.

            “These statements of Sweden are good, but not enough until they are implemented,” Celik said late Monday. “We are waiting for it to come to life.”

            Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has demanded that Sweden and Finland -- both of which sought NATO membership after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine -- extradite suspects Turkey considers terrorists.

            Celik’s remarks, ahead of a visit by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg this week and a separate trip by new Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson next week, signaled that Turkey remains defiant in ratifying the membership bids that it first threatened to veto in May.

            Swedish Leader Says No Easy Task to Convince Turkey on NATO

            “We have full respect for the fact that every country within the alliance makes its own decisions,” Kristersson said at a news conference in Helsinki on Tuesday. “I had a telephone call with President Erdogan the other day. We agreed on me coming to Ankara and I will communicate the exact date when it is formally confirmed.”

            Stoltenberg has encouraged both Sweden and Finland to accede to the requests from Turkey, which has the second-largest armed forces within the North Atlantic Treaty Organization after the US. While an agreement in June nudged the process forward, allowing 28 of the alliance’s 30 members to ratify the Nordic nations’ entry, Turkey and Hungary remain the holdouts.

            Erdogan is scheduled to meet Stoltenberg in Istanbul on Friday to discuss the expansion of NATO as well as the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

            The Turkish leader is expected to receive Sweden’s Kristersson in Ankara on Nov. 8. In a call with the prime minister last week, Erdogan stressed that “preventing terrorist organizations from taking hostage Sweden’s NATO membership and its relations with Turkey is a common interest,” according to the state-run Anadolu Agency.

            Sweden has been one of Europe’s most willing recipients of migrants fleeing conflict, including Kurds.

            Kristersson has repeatedly said that his country will honor the agreement with Turkey, and cooperate on fighting terrorism.

            Erdogan is facing elections next year and is keen to consolidate nationalist support by pressuring the Nordic nations to make written commitments to crack down not only on supporters of the Kurdish PKK militant group -- already designated a terrorist organization by the European Union and the US -- but also on its affiliates such as the so-called YPG militia in Syria.

            Backed by Western nations, the YPG played a significant role in defeating Islamic State jihadists in Syria. Turkey accuses the group of attacking its soldiers near the countries’ border.
            __________
            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

            Comment


            • ‘Final Destruction’: Russia Threatens Norway With Ugly Fall Out

              Russia announced Wednesday that it views Norway’s work with other countries in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization as provocative, warning that Norway’s efforts to bolster its military in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine this year will likely be the death knell for Oslo-Moscow relations moving forward.

              “Oslo is now among the most active supporters of NATO's involvement in the Arctic,” Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Maria Zakharova said Wednesday, according to TASS. “We consider such developments near Russian borders as Oslo's deliberate pursuit of a destructive course toward escalation of tensions in the Euro-Arctic region and the final destruction of Russian-Norwegian relations.”

              In her statement, Zakharova also warned that any further “unfriendly actions will be followed by a timely and adequate response.”

              The news of Russia’s complaints about Norway comes just a day after Norway raised its military alert level in response to suspicious drone sightings. Norway has arrested several Russians, including one son of an associate of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s, and accused them of illegally flying drones in Norwegian airspace or taking photos in restricted areas as concerns abound about potential Russian attacks on critical infrastructure. Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre warned Russia to cut it out, according to Norwegian broadcaster NRK.

              NATO countries ought to be on alert to Russia’s aggression in light of the war in Ukraine, Støre warned Monday.

              “Today, we have no reason to believe that Russia will want to involve Norway or any other country directly in the war,” Støre said. “But the war in Ukraine makes it necessary for all NATO countries to be more vigilant.”

              Norway has previously hosted exercises and has long hosted rotational deployments of U.S. troops for arctic training. Russia’s announcement comes weeks after the U.S. Air Force participated in a combat arctic integration training exercise with NATO allies and the Royal Norwegian Air Force at Norway’s Ørland Main Air Station, according to the U.S. Defense Department. The allies worked to operate quickly across weapons platforms and systems to try to deter Russia along NATO’s eastern flank.

              “The sum is that together, we can better defend not only Norway and the Nordic countries, but also Europe should the need arise,” Col. Martin Tesli, the 132nd Luftving Base commander, said in a statement.

              The U.S. Air Force’s 90th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron deployed for the exercise was also able to work with the Air Force from Finland, which is in the process of joining NATO in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

              Moscow’s warning appeared to be just the latest Russian attempt to assert its own narrative as its relationships with countries across Europe and the West continue to deteriorate.

              It’s not the first time Russia has tried to raise red flags over what it sees as provocative action from European countries and NATO cooperation. Moscow warned before it invaded Ukraine this year that it views the expansion of members in NATO—which was established to counter threats from the Soviet Union—as a threat to Russia. The Kremlin has maintained that Ukraine’s interest in joining the military alliance poses a threat to Russia, a claim it had repeated in recent days.

              Russia’s aggression towards Ukraine and European nations is “the most serious security policy situation we have experienced in several decades,” Støre emphasized.

              Norway has been working to help Ukraine defend against Russia’s invasion since the outset of the war. The country has sanctioned the Russian government in an attempt to get Moscow to back off from the war and had provided Ukraine with military assistance. The assistance includes an air defense system, Mistral surface-to-air missiles, thousands of anti-tank missiles, protective gear such as bulletproof vests and helmets, and armored vehicles.

              Oslo has also sought to ramp up its military budget. Just last month, Norway proposed boosting its defense budget for next year by nearly 10 percent, according to Defense Minister Bjørn Arild Gram. A chunk of the increase is dedicated to weapons for Ukraine’s defense against Russia.

              “Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine is a threat to Norwegian and European security. The war has already had major security political, economic, and humanitarian consequences,” Gram said. “The need for military support to Ukraine is necessary, extensive, and time-critical. This budget strengthens the Armed Forces and stands up for Ukraine.”

              Norway is also helping to train Ukrainian soldiers alongside the U.K. and has promised to provide Ukraine over $1.1 billion (in USD) in financial assistance over the next two years.

              Norway isn’t the only nation Russia has protested in recent days. Late last month Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov announced that Moscow sees no point in maintaining diplomatic relations with Western states writ large.

              Lavrov noted that Russia would like to focus its world diplomacy on countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia, rather than work with the West.

              “We will shift the ‘center of gravity’ to countries that are ready to cooperate with us on equal and mutually beneficial terms and look for promising joint projects,” Lavrov said.
              ____________

              Oh gosh. Poor Norway. Whatever will they do in the face of this terrible threat?
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

              Comment


              • What a crock!!!
                Sorry Joe, I don’t mean you; my scorn is directed at the Russian propagandists who are castigating Norway for their “military build-up” in the Artic!
                As if Norway is the only Arctic neighbor of Russia that’s increasing their military spending, Finland, Denmark, Canada and USA are all upping their military expenditures.
                So why is the Putz singling out Norway for his ire?
                Well, the answer might be simple.
                The oil and natural gas from Norway’s North Sea oil fields must be a real thorn in the eye of the Putz’s attempt to blackmail the West into backing off from their support of Ukraine.
                In that context it’s no coincidence that of over the dozen unauthorized drone flight that have been observed in Norwegian airspace, have been at or near oil/gas installations.
                …or that NATO’s primo Stoltenberg made it quite clear at a recent press conference, that an attack on the critical infrastructure of a NATO member would call into being NATO’s Article 5!!!

                When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                  [SIZE=18px]____________

                  Oh gosh. Poor Norway. Whatever will they do in the face of this terrible threat?
                  Russia seems to have forgotten they are not the only Arctic country.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    ..... Lavrov noted that Russia would like to focus its world diplomacy on countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia, rather than work with the West.

                    “We will shift the ‘center of gravity’ to countries that are ready to cooperate with us on equal and mutually beneficial terms and look for promising joint projects,” Lavrov said.
                    ____________

                    Oh gosh. Poor Norway. Whatever will they do in the face of this terrible threat?
                    The ultimate threat; 'Do what we say or we will ignore you'.
                    The proper response: 'Did anyone else here a noise just then?'
                    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                      ‘Final Destruction’: Russia Threatens Norway With Ugly Fall Out

                      Oh gosh. Poor Norway. Whatever will they do in the face of this terrible threat?
                      Speaking as a Civ-2 player, it seems like a really fucking bad idea to threaten the territorial integrity of a country that has a mutual defense pact with a superpower and several other world powers.
                      "Draft beer, not people."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Red Team View Post

                        Speaking as a Civ-2 player, it seems like a really fucking bad idea to threaten the territorial integrity of a country that has a mutual defense pact with a superpower and several other world powers.
                        Not to mention a country who has a reputation for kicking your ass on a regular basis.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • One left standing...


                          Hungary to ratify NATO membership for Finland, Sweden early next year - PM Orban | Reuters

                          Hungary to ratify NATO membership for Finland, Sweden early next year - PM Orban

                          WARSAW (Reuters) -Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Thursday that Hungary's parliament would ratify NATO membership for Finland and Sweden early next year.

                          Polish PM Mateusz Morawiecki visits Finland© Thomson Reuters

                          Orban told a briefing after a meeting of the Visegrad Group in Slovakia that his government had already decided that Hungary would support Finland's and Sweden's NATO accession and parliament would set this item on its agenda at its first session next year.

                          "Hungary will surely give its backing to their accession, after the government had done, also parliament will do so," Orban said. Parliament normally reconvenes around mid-February.

                          Hungary and Turkey are the only members of the alliance who have not yet cleared the accession.

                          The Hungarian government submitted the relevant legislation in July but parliament, in which Orban's ruling Fidesz party has a two-thirds majority, has not yet tabled the two bills for debate and approval.

                          (Reporting by Alan Charlish, Pawel Florkiewicz, Anna Wlodarczak-Semczuk; Editing by Alex Richardson)
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • I still like to see the complete set. Come on Austria. Stop dragging your feet!
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...ce-from-turkey
                              No real surprise in that Hungary has belatedly jumped on the wagon; they need NATO and yes, the EU,
                              more than Putin and Erdogan were able to pay out!
                              That leaves Turkey as the only roadblock!
                              With Finland any obstacles can probably be resolved,
                              With Sweden it’s more problematic, especially if Erdogan insists on receiving his pound of flesh.
                              In form of the Kurds he wants deported from Sweden and turned over to Turkey!
                              There are members from the extreme-right wing; of the Centre-Right coalition that control the Swedish Parliament,
                              who would gladly simply turn the Kurds over to the Turks!
                              But they can’t!!!
                              Sweden is a Western democracy, with a strong belief in civil and legal rights.
                              The government could take the Kurds to court, to attempt to strip them of their claim for Political Asylum.
                              With the various legal instances I’d estimate no less than 5 years, in and out of the courts!!!
                              …and in 5 years a lot can happen!!!
                              Tomorrow (Tuesday 29/11) the Foreign Ministers from Turkey, Finland and Sweden will meet in Bucharest to discuss NATO!
                              If Erdogan’s sock-puppet continues to insist that the Kurds must be deported, it should put to rest any doubt that Erdogan is playing Putin’s game,
                              in laying down an ultimatum, that he knows can’t be accepted!!
                              When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                I still like to see the complete set. Come on Austria. Stop dragging your feet!
                                ????

                                Austria isn't a member of NATO.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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