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  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
    So they're going to sanction Putin personally...which the Kremlin has said would be a de facto severing of diplomatic relations.
    Yeah. So the laugh of the week has been talking about sanctions but not barring swift transactions.

    I use swift periodically through what's known as a telegraphic xfer. Essentially anyone that xferrs money internationally in appreciable amounts uses the system. Lil old me xferres through 3 currencies before it hits the U.K. Saves bank fees in their transactions - some companies hundreds of thousands $$ yearly. Essentially its what rich people use anyway, and it's instantaneous. Infact I would have loved to have been Putins buddy recently. I would have xferred out of Russian cash holdings to elsewhere, then cashed back in. One of those oligarcs would have made millions easily over the last week, making money off of Westerners vascillating of sanctions. The damn irony.

    This is what Germany & Italy are backing. In short their governments are happy to forgo proppng up some exposed businesses, instead opting for Ukrainian lives being the cheaper option.

    Makes the blood curdle a little bit - if the general populace was educated on what a treacherous move this was by 2 pre-eminant European democracies they wouldn't stand for it - As an Australian I wouldn't trust those two countries to help us out one little bit it speaks volumes of their approach to peace.

    'Sanctions' is pretty much the same as 'condemnation' on so many fronts it's hard to decipher which ones will work. But yeah. Germany & Italy- Bad apples.
    Last edited by Chunder; 26 Feb 22,, 02:42.
    Ego Numquam

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    • "Having to watch both means doing less justice to both..."


      1945-90 suggests it can be done. The rules have changed. It's not our system that's the issue. It's the complacence and predictable orthodoxy of our responses that is the problem. Putin is creating far more than "...a nuisance...". Our cheap-suit politicians might have to find a stateman or two amidst their crew.
      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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      • Originally posted by rj1 View Post


        I appreciate the Russians' efforts trying to make the world look like the Diplomacy game map where Ukraine has no access to the Black Sea.

        Per a Georgian's translation, the above is from Russian TV of "Proposal of Division for Ukraine" compared to pre-2014. Nice of the Russians to be friendly to Poland and give them bits of western Ukraine. :D

        I did not have a Georgian on hand so used Google translate app on my phone.

        Click image for larger version

Name:	Russian tv_r.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	61.1 KB
ID:	1581404

        Now it's not UN interpreter good but it gets you there.

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        • Originally posted by S2 View Post
          1945-90 suggests it can be done.
          By recruiting China it split Soviet forces. Less to deploy against Europe.

          Earlier the Brits focused on Russia by under emphasizing Tibet so as not to provoke the Chinese.

          This situation has the US having to split resources.

          Now i hear the line of being able to deploy simultaneously in two theatres.

          Your economy back then dwarfed theirs, combined.

          There was no interlinking then like there is now.

          End of WW2 you had a 6,000 ship navy. Today it is less than 10%

          Originally posted by S2 View Post
          The rules have changed.
          Different game now. Time to get out of anti-terror mindset and get back to playing the main game.

          US hyper power era of the 90s has ended. The next 20 were the multi-polar era which has also ended.

          We're entering bipolar now.

          Originally posted by S2 View Post
          It's not our system that's the issue. It's the complacence and predictable orthodoxy of our responses that is the problem. Putin is creating far more than "...a nuisance...". Our cheap-suit politicians might have to find a stateman or two amidst their crew.
          What could your govt have done differently ? Can you explain how your govt has been complacent here.

          Biden can do everything right and Putin will still screw with him just because he's a democrat. Think back who was in charge in 2014.

          How much of a problem Putin will become remains to be seen. I don't expect any solution with a democrat in office.

          Neither US nor China has an interest in Russia joining the other camp and this is where the Russians get to play both.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 26 Feb 22,, 03:26.

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          • Originally posted by Chunder View Post

            Yeah. So the laugh of the week has been talking about sanctions but not barring swift transactions.

            I use swift periodically through what's known as a telegraphic xfer. Essentially anyone that xferrs money internationally in appreciable amounts uses the system. Lil old me xferres through 3 currencies before it hits the U.K. Saves bank fees in their transactions - some companies hundreds of thousands $$ yearly. Essentially its what rich people use anyway, and it's instantaneous. Infact I would have loved to have been Putins buddy recently. I would have xferred out of Russian cash holdings to elsewhere, then cashed back in. One of those oligarcs would have made millions easily over the last week, making money off of Westerners vascillating of sanctions. The damn irony.

            This is what Germany & Italy are backing. In short their governments are happy to forgo proppng up some exposed businesses, instead opting for Ukrainian lives being the cheaper option.

            Makes the blood curdle a little bit - if the general populace was educated on what a treacherous move this was by 2 pre-eminant European democracies they wouldn't stand for it - As an Australian I wouldn't trust those two countries to help us out one little bit it speaks volumes of their approach to peace.

            'Sanctions' is pretty much the same as 'condemnation' on so many fronts it's hard to decipher which ones will work. But yeah. Germany & Italy- Bad apples.
            FWIW, both Germany and Italy have recently stated today that they are willing to enact SWIFT sanctions. It sounds like they were waiting to determine avenues on mitigating the negative economic effects of those measures before changing course.
            "Draft beer, not people."

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            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              In an address to the nation Thursday, Zelensky announced a full military mobilization, with men aged 18 to 60 barred from leaving the country.
              Is this a day late and a dollar short? Would an earlier mobilization have made a difference? If so, what are good reasons he might have delayed this action?

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              • Originally posted by Mithridates View Post
                Is this a day late and a dollar short? Would an earlier mobilization have made a difference? If so, what are good reasons he might have delayed this action?
                From a strategic standpoint general mobilization should have happened months earlier, but it looks like the Ukrainian government up to this point was taking every precaution to deny Russia even a sniff of a casus belli.
                "Draft beer, not people."

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                • Haven't seen any new developments about Hostomel airport. Is it in Russian or Ukrainian hands?

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                  • Originally posted by Red Team View Post

                    From a strategic standpoint general mobilization should have happened months earlier, but it looks like the Ukrainian government up to this point was taking every precaution to deny Russia even a sniff of a casus belli.
                    Seems like a stretch to call any kind of mobilization a casus belli. What was Zelensky gonna do - invade Russia?

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                    • Originally posted by Mithridates View Post
                      Seems like a stretch to call any kind of mobilization a casus belli. What was Zelensky gonna do - invade Russia?
                      It's completely absurd to us of course, but then again Putin was literally trying to create a narrative that Ukraine was preparing to commit genocide against Russians. While I ultimately think that Ukraine should have taken many more steps to prepare for this invasion, I kind of understand why they took the steps that they did.

                      Originally posted by Mithridates View Post
                      Haven't seen any new developments about Hostomel airport. Is it in Russian or Ukrainian hands?
                      Hostomel is in Russian hands now, but according to various Ukrainian defense sources the runway has been demolished to an unusable state.
                      "Draft beer, not people."

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                      • Originally posted by Red Team View Post
                        Hostomel is in Russian hands now, but according to various Ukrainian defense sources the runway has been demolished to an unusable state.
                        So the Ukrainians can't even retake an airport on the outskirts of the capital from a few hundred Russians armed with light weapons, despite having artillery at their disposal? Would it be overly critical to say that there's a competence issue here, given that the Russians are presumably cut off from resupply?

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                        • Originally posted by Mithridates View Post
                          So the Ukrainians can't even retake an airport on the outskirts of the capital from a few hundred Russians armed with light weapons, despite having artillery at their disposal? Would it be overly critical to say that there's a competence issue here, given that the Russians are presumably cut off from resupply?
                          If the runway is unusable, the airport becomes a meaningless prize for the Russians and a meaningless place to defend for the Ukrainians.

                          It's also possible that the Russians were reinforced by helicopter or parachute drops.

                          Edit: It was the Russian army units attacking from Belarus that retook the airport.
                          "Donald Trump is the first seditious president in our history. He decided he would not abide by the election, the duly constituted, free election of Joe Biden as the president of the United States, and staged a coup to keep Biden from taking office." ~ Carl Bernstein

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                          • It was a fresh assault with a 200 helo insert
                            Chimo

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                            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              If the runway is unusable, the airport becomes a meaningless prize for the Russians and a meaningless place to defend for the Ukrainians.
                              Give the Russian engineers 24 hours to repair the place. You forget that we expect these things to happen. It's not damaging the runway that keeps it from being operational. It's killing the engineers doing the repairs.
                              Chimo

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                              • At this rate, a major war in Europe is not a distant possibility. I think Russia has finally concluded that the existence of NATO is an existential threat. Deterrence gone out the window.
                                ​​​
                                ​​​​Russian PoV:
                                "If you don't take action now, you settle for nothing later"
                                "If you settle for nothing now, then you settle for nothing later"

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