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  • Buck,

    "And as always keep in mind with a new system comes a new type of ammunition, training and most importantly, spare parts. Again, that $100 million won't go too far..."

    And as you've later indicated the money is already allocated to further howitzers and tubes. Not an altogether bad thing. However, we seem well aware of the time lag existing between offering a new system and getting it downrange to end users. Three months after a war has started we're now concerned? That's running well behind the curve.

    "Finally, is the HIMARS really what Ukraine needs?"

    Ukraine has a lot of needs-many that could/should have been addressed well before now. Those needs certainly include weapon systems offering accurate fires out to 70K using conventional M30/31 munitions. Frankly, send them ATACMS and let's do some runway cratering up in Bryansk Oblast. Everybody in Russia should be hearing "BOOM!!" daily.

    "Or would getting them more BM-21s and reloads for those be a better and quicker allocation of funding."

    Wouldn't the rationale for conversion to 155mm based western howitzers apply here as well? What are the ammunition/parts issues of old Soviet stocks? Abundance? Evidently not for Soviet legacy howitzer ammunition that's apparently in short supply. Here's the cool thing, Buck-the Ukrainians won't say "NO" to anything.

    "Regardless, I know a lot of this very much inside baseball but the hurdles are real."

    We'd better re-explore those hurdles lest they stand in our own way when we need them instead of somebody else.

    "...Perhaps the new Lend Lease law and $40 billion will knock down some of these barriers but time will tell."

    I don't know the particulars of the new Lend Lease law but, Rand Paul be damned, the bill passed. Time? The Ukrainians ran out of time three months ago. Everything is needed and everything is late. This has become at WAB a budget discussion which is, btw, a great way for a compelling need to be bureaucratically assassinated through death by a thousand cuts.

    At least we've moved away from the realm of "We mustn't upset Vlad the mad". Or, at least, I hope we have. Go Celts (retch...barf).

    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

    Comment


    • Originally posted by S2 View Post
      Buck,

      "And as always keep in mind with a new system comes a new type of ammunition, training and most importantly, spare parts. Again, that $100 million won't go too far..."

      And as you've later indicated the money is already allocated to further howitzers and tubes. Not an altogether bad thing. However, we seem well aware of the time lag existing between offering a new system and getting it downrange to end users. Three months after a war has started we're now concerned? That's running well behind the curve.

      "Finally, is the HIMARS really what Ukraine needs?"

      Ukraine has a lot of needs-many that could/should have been addressed well before now. Those needs certainly include weapon systems offering accurate fires out to 70K using conventional M30/31 munitions. Frankly, send them ATACMS and let's do some runway cratering up in Bryansk Oblast. Everybody in Russia should be hearing "BOOM!!" daily..
      Even a single battery could have massively outsized impact. Kerch Straits Bridge, BSF fuel storage or subs in their pens, theater commanders..... I mean the Ukrainians have been very resourceful.

      Comment


      • Z,

        A.R.'s best (of a few show-stopper) argument is there simply aren't any to sell/give without coming out of our own combat resources. Understood but I'd be uber-cool with those weapons actually engaging real targets instead of periodic test-fires in White Sands. Fly a battery into Cracow or somewhere like that, two weeks of training, hand over their gear and leave their Ukrainian Liaison with A.R.'s phone number for parts/ammo resupply.

        Wonder if Poland would be prepared to see their allotment go elsewhere for the moment?
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

        Comment


        • Originally posted by S2 View Post
          Z,

          A.R.'s best (of a few show-stopper) argument is there simply aren't any to sell/give without coming out of our own combat resources. Understood but I'd be uber-cool with those weapons actually engaging real targets instead of periodic test-fires in White Sands. Fly a battery into Cracow or somewhere like that, two weeks of training, hand over their gear and leave their Ukrainian Liaison with A.R.'s phone number for parts/ammo resupply.

          Wonder if Poland would be prepared to see their allotment go elsewhere for the moment?
          The M777's we gave came from the USMC's down sizing. Not sure if the Marines had any

          Just thinking out loud, how had to modify a Tochka U TEL?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
            Putin's little helpers in the west are out in force now in media and politics, demanding the Ukrainians accept a shit sandwich to save Putin's arse.
            Here's some more for you .

            https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...a-to-negotiate

            Its been a political PR exercise that everything is hunky dory. The reality is however different.

            https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...to-is-building


            Ego Numquam

            Comment


            • Originally posted by S2 View Post
              Buck,

              "And as always keep in mind with a new system comes a new type of ammunition, training and most importantly, spare parts. Again, that $100 million won't go too far..."

              And as you've later indicated the money is already allocated to further howitzers and tubes. Not an altogether bad thing. However, we seem well aware of the time lag existing between offering a new system and getting it downrange to end users. Three months after a war has started we're now concerned? That's running well behind the curve.

              "Finally, is the HIMARS really what Ukraine needs?"

              Ukraine has a lot of needs-many that could/should have been addressed well before now. Those needs certainly include weapon systems offering accurate fires out to 70K using conventional M30/31 munitions. Frankly, send them ATACMS and let's do some runway cratering up in Bryansk Oblast. Everybody in Russia should be hearing "BOOM!!" daily.

              "Or would getting them more BM-21s and reloads for those be a better and quicker allocation of funding."

              Wouldn't the rationale for conversion to 155mm based western howitzers apply here as well? What are the ammunition/parts issues of old Soviet stocks? Abundance? Evidently not for Soviet legacy howitzer ammunition that's apparently in short supply. Here's the cool thing, Buck-the Ukrainians won't say "NO" to anything.

              "Regardless, I know a lot of this very much inside baseball but the hurdles are real."

              We'd better re-explore those hurdles lest they stand in our own way when we need them instead of somebody else.

              "...Perhaps the new Lend Lease law and $40 billion will knock down some of these barriers but time will tell."

              I don't know the particulars of the new Lend Lease law but, Rand Paul be damned, the bill passed. Time? The Ukrainians ran out of time three months ago. Everything is needed and everything is late. This has become at WAB a budget discussion which is, btw, a great way for a compelling need to be bureaucratically assassinated through death by a thousand cuts.

              At least we've moved away from the realm of "We mustn't upset Vlad the mad". Or, at least, I hope we have. Go Celts (retch...barf).
              Glad you have converted to Boston Sports Fandom, Steve!

              Much of the bureaucracy you rightly condemn is roundly condemned by me and my peers. The Acquisition Corps is not the issue. Congress and the defense manufacturers are where to point the finger. An example is the F-35. Parts for the F-35 are made in 45 states & Puerto Rico. Tell me that's efficient. It increases cost and complexity. But it's good for the reelection prospects of Senator Buford T. Pettyfogger.

              As for ATACMS, the production line closed in 2007 and SLEP programs were called off due to costs and reliability concerns. But there enough in the hands of our Allies we could probably come up with a small package (around 50) for Ukraine and then backfill with the new Precision Strike Missile when it is ready next year (?) But that doesn't get around the very real issue of where do the launchers come from.

              I know the budgetary stuff makes you fillings vibrate but the rules are very real. The rules for defense acquisition professionals are ; 1) ensure you get the best value on your dollars to provide weapon systems which provide the best Cost, Schedule, Performance and Reliability and 2) make sure your program doesn't end up on 60 Minutes. These newish rules & regulations are in place because of issues found on previous programs such as the FCS and the early F-35.

              All of that still begs the question...where do we get the launchers for the rockets? We very well could be working behind the scenes with Poland and Taiwan to take some of the production run intended for them and steer the launchers to Ukraine but I want that work to remain secret...prying eyes need not know all that is going on behind the scenes.

              I say all of this to just show to folks that we can't just cross our arms, blink our eyes and and nod like I Dream Of Jeannie and make things happen. Doesn't work this way unfortunately.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

              Comment


              • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                Z,

                A.R.'s best (of a few show-stopper) argument is there simply aren't any to sell/give without coming out of our own combat resources. Understood but I'd be uber-cool with those weapons actually engaging real targets instead of periodic test-fires in White Sands. Fly a battery into Cracow or somewhere like that, two weeks of training, hand over their gear and leave their Ukrainian Liaison with A.R.'s phone number for parts/ammo resupply.

                Wonder if Poland would be prepared to see their allotment go elsewhere for the moment?
                Just so all are aware that phone number expires 3 FEB 2023!!!!

                After that, Fort Living Room baby!!!
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

                Comment


                • Originally posted by zraver View Post

                  The M777's we gave came from the USMC's down sizing. Not sure if the Marines had any

                  Just thinking out loud, how had to modify a Tochka U TEL?
                  They downsized the M777 because they converted those units to HIMARS. They do not have any spares.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                    Glad you have converted to Boston Sports Fandom, Steve!
                    Spoken like true WARRIORS...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      I say all of this to just show to folks that we can't just cross our arms, blink our eyes and and nod like I Dream Of Jeannie and make things happen. Doesn't work this way unfortunately.
                      *** Buck in I dream of Jeannie costune ***

                      Well, there goes my mental recovery.

                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        *** Buck in I dream of Jeannie costume ***

                        Well, there goes my mental recovery.
                        I am merely here to serve the masses, Colonel.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Here is an excellent thread on how the way Russians store their vehicles as opposed to the US. All of the greatest hits are seen here in one thread. It is outstanding.

                          https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...05172355366912
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            *** Buck in I dream of Jeannie costune ***

                            Well, there goes my mental recovery.
                            How about picturing him not wearing any consume at all. Does that help?
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • You want to kno what? Fuck NATO!!!

                              I was trying to acknoledgge how NATO save the UKR. I've been exaiminating how how our placements made a diffrencetnce. JAVE;INS+NLAWS+GUSTAVs vs pRPG-8s. Fact is RPGgs had more tank kills than all our AtgmS COMBINED. Nevermindf the STUG-NPs.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • This 2S4 fvcked around and then it found out.

                                https://twitter.com/GlasnostGone/sta...QjR5RsVcl0S4-A
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

                                Comment

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