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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Hey, my plan was simple. If they build anything on our side or close then we use it for target practice.

    Show up, give them an hour to vacate and demolish whatever they built.

    Or do what we did at Doklam, confiscate their construction equipment when they are building.

    This is better than causing some border incident by shooting 50-100 PLA for trespass as Oracle wants.

    No need to waste money building indefensible infrastructure on our side.

    You guys disagreed with that idea

    Both military chiefs of India & China too.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Mar 21,, 15:30.

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Hey, my plan was simple. If they build anything on our side or close then we use it for target practice.

      Show up, give them an hour to vacate and demolish whatever they built.

      Or do what we did at Doklam, confiscate their construction equipment when they are building.

      This is better than causing some border incident by shooting 50-100 PLA for trespass as Oracle wants.

      No need to waste money building indefensible infrastructure on our side.

      You guys disagreed with that idea

      Both military chiefs of India & China too.
      Oracle wants so many things no government can fulfill. Joke apart, if IA confiscates PLA equipment or demolishes PLA made structures, they would be back again. Would have accomplished nothing. Shooting dead some 50-100 PLA soldiers and they wouldn't dare those cheap tricks again. Atleast they'd give it another thought, if they think they want to try again. I am all for peace, but peace can only be obtained from a position of strength.
      Last edited by Oracle; 01 Mar 21,, 16:39.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • China appears to warn India: Push too hard and the lights could go out

        Chinese hackers target Indian vaccine makers Serum Institute, Bharat Biotech: Security firm

        India needs to step up, hire cybersecurity professionals in the 1000s.
        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

          Oracle wants so many things no government can fulfill. Joke apart, if IA confiscates PLA equipment or demolishes PLA made structures, they would be back again. Would have accomplished nothing. Shooting dead some 50-100 PLA soldiers and they wouldn't dare those cheap tricks again. Atleast they'd give it another thought, if they think they want to try again. I am all for peace, but peace can only be obtained from a position of strength.
          The problem isn't their guys coming in, we do that as well if one goes with that CICR document which lists incursions from our side.

          1,581 times in 2019 alone.

          We can't prevent incursions since they won't clarify where the LAC lies.

          The problem is permanent structures. They build stuff, wait and watch then when no resistance comes fortify it, claim the land.

          Stop those constructions and do it all along the border and we have accomplished something

          It's a bit late in the day now if you consider what happened in Depsang but we have to start some where.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Mar 21,, 18:30.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Everything you said applies to the Chinese side too isn't it. For so long i've heard we can blow up this and that on their side. But they still continue to build infrastructure.
            Here's the thing. They've got entire engr regts stationed there. It's not whether you can do damage. It's whether they can repair in time to support their goals. I keep harping this military fundamental. You always bomb a target twice. Once to kill the target. The second time to kill the engineers repairing the target. In this regard, the Chinese have 2000 SSMs that they could commit to a campaign. Do the math.

            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            Oracle wants so many things no government can fulfill. Joke apart, if IA confiscates PLA equipment or demolishes PLA made structures, they would be back again. Would have accomplished nothing. Shooting dead some 50-100 PLA soldiers and they wouldn't dare those cheap tricks again. Atleast they'd give it another thought, if they think they want to try again. I am all for peace, but peace can only be obtained from a position of strength.
            It's a military axiom that either you're too desperate or too stupid to start a fight you can't win. India may be able to fight to a standstill but there is no way India is going to outbleed China and certainly, there is no way India is going to outspend China. That leaves outsmarting China. We then come back to this military axiom. It's complete desperation or complete STUPIDITY to start a fight you can't win.

            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Here's the thing. They've got entire engr regts stationed there. It's not whether you can do damage. It's whether they can repair in time to support their goals. I keep harping this military fundamental. You always bomb a target twice. Once to kill the target. The second time to kill the engineers repairing the target. In this regard, the Chinese have 2000 SSMs that they could commit to a campaign. Do the math.
              Shiv has done the math.

              Your number of available assets to use on India is higher than Shiv's btw.

              You both start out with a similar number of SSM's but Shiv's number is smaller because otherwise China would be using their entire inventory against India.

              Would China do that ?



              He says 550 SSM's available.

              In addition their CEP is bad provided Baidu can somehow be jammed.

              Would NATO be interested in that ? maybe

              Could China count on NATO not helping India here by jamming Baidu ? maybe

              Let's assume NATO does not do it. India has done an anti-satellite missile test already.

              How many targets are there. How many missiles have they got.

              Not enough. Forget trying to get the engineers.

              He does not even mention bridges, he's talking about airbases as that's what will be coming their way with much more precision than their SSM's.

              There is something else he has mentioned in talks.

              PLA from what we've seen like to ride in their cloned Humvee's.

              The Indian side treks about on foot. How safe will Chinese ingress routes be from such men with MANPADS & IEDs ?


              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              It's a military axiom that either you're too desperate or too stupid to start a fight you can't win. India may be able to fight to a standstill but there is no way India is going to outbleed China and certainly, there is no way India is going to outspend China. That leaves outsmarting China. We then come back to this military axiom. It's complete desperation or complete STUPIDITY to start a fight you can't win.
              Too stupid fits XJP but i think cooler heads will prevail. If China cannot win they won't start a fight. Because not winning is a defacto India win.

              A marginal win is also an Indian win.

              In a short fight India will thrash them black & blue. Its only in longer drawn out fight does their CNP come into play.

              China isn't interested in a long fight.

              People say this part of the world is the most dangerous. Three nuke powers, two of which have a problem with India.

              Two are allies and also irredentist meaning they want to expand their borders and will do so if the opportunity presents itself.

              But that is not the reality. This region has crisis stability.

              China cannot take Arunachal and India cannot take Aksai Chin.

              Pakistan cannot take Kashmir and India either cannot or has shown no resolve to reclaim PO J&K and this is going back decades. Sorry Oracle.

              No irredentism demonstrated at the Indian official level other than to point out illegally occupied Indian land. I am ignoring some intriguing comments made in Parliament as playing to the gallery.

              There is nothing to gain by war for either of the three. Just the bill. Running into the 10s of $billion per month.

              Limited battles maybe but not beyond.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Mar 21,, 21:04.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                You both start out with a similar number of SSM's but Shiv's number is smaller because otherwise China would be using their entire inventory against India.

                Would China do that ?
                Count on it. Why not? We did. We emptied out our arsenals in both the Kuwait and the Iraq Wars; requiring immediate orders to industries to replenish our stocks.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                In addition their CEP is bad provided Baidu can somehow be jammed.
                What frearking drugs is this guy taking? The SSMs don't need Baidu. There's no feed from Baidu. Baidu maybe used for directing man flight packages. That's it.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                How many targets are there. How many missiles have they got.
                You're overcomplicating things. The Chinese ain't going to do SEAD. They'll use AAA and SAM for that. In fact, the Chinese don't have a clue on what exactly is SEAD. What they are, however, is an artillery army. The PLA historically has been an artillery army, albeit not as good as the Russian or Western counterparts. What that means is that they will concentrate their fire to support an attack. What's outside of that will be handled by the forces committed to battle. In other words, they will concentrate their fire to isolate the battlefield.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Too stupid fits XJP but i think cooler heads will prevail. If China cannot win they won't start a fight. Because not winning is a defacto India win.
                You forget how China won the Sino-VN Wars. They bankrupted Hanoi, not marching to Hanoi.

                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  It's a military axiom that either you're too desperate or too stupid to start a fight you can't win. India may be able to fight to a standstill but there is no way India is going to outbleed China and certainly, there is no way India is going to outspend China. That leaves outsmarting China. We then come back to this military axiom. It's complete desperation or complete STUPIDITY to start a fight you can't win.
                  Sir, you're thinking in the wrong direction. Shock and awe is what I was thinking. If Galwan serves as a future template, then a shooting contest, where the IA draws first blood will lead to shock and awe in the PLA camp, not lead to war.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    People say this part of the world is the most dangerous. Three nuke powers, two of which have a problem with India.

                    Two are allies and also irredentist meaning they want to expand their borders and will do so if the opportunity presents itself.
                    Western leftist narrative says that. No Asian country is ever going to use nukes. It's a white elephant, good for circus shows.

                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    But that is not the reality. This region has crisis stability.

                    China cannot take Arunachal and India cannot take Aksai Chin.

                    Pakistan cannot take Kashmir and India either cannot or has shown no resolve to reclaim PO J&K and this is going back decades. Sorry Oracle.
                    Don't be. Though I don't completely agree with your statement.

                    Don't know about others, but our stability lies in us getting freaking rich. Money buys food, fuel, medicines, bullets, bombs. Money is one of the most important aspects of power projection.

                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    No irredentism demonstrated at the Indian official level other than to point out illegally occupied Indian land. I am ignoring some intriguing comments made in Parliament as playing to the gallery.

                    There is nothing to gain by war for either of the three. Just the bill. Running into the 10s of $billion per month.

                    Limited battles maybe but not beyond.
                    Some good thinking there. Now go and type that in Twitter. Right-wing will label you as leftist/communist, and the left-wing will accuse you of being a sell out.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Sir, you're thinking in the wrong direction. Shock and awe is what I was thinking. If Galwan serves as a future template, then a shooting contest, where the IA draws first blood will lead to shock and awe in the PLA camp, not lead to war.
                      Shock and awe, in military terms, means that the reserves are destroyed before the vanguard even knew that combat has been initiated. Not going to happen within the Sino-Indo context by either side.

                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        DND and Foreign Affairs have been at loggerheads for decades. We have zero respect for each other and quite frankly, we ignored everything Foreign Affairs says.
                        Was trying to think of an Indian equivalent and missed something obvious.

                        The talks with the Chinese are succeeding precisely because they are military led. Indian military led. This is rare.

                        Usually its foreign affairs that does the talking with the adversaries and the military isn't even at the table.

                        This has led to mistakes earlier.

                        eg. interactions between India & China in the 50s, military was no where to be seen.

                        Foreign minister did everything to the point where even Nehru was a bystander.

                        Had to ensure there was civvie leadership. Almost paranoia from Nehru who was nervous about a coup.

                        And so they took the below quote a bit too far.

                        'War is too important to be left to the generals’ snapped future French prime minister Georges Clemenceau on learning of yet another bloody and futile offensive on the Western Front.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Mar 21,, 14:59.

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                        • Here's one for the PLA logistics dept.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status...37594444484608

                          Thing is that railway only goes so far as Hotan. To get to Ladakh requires getting around mountains on the G219. There is just the one road.

                          The Nyngchi one gets closer to Arunachal

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                          • CCP moving 12k troops to the Burma border can be confused for something else. They did this before the coup in Burma

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                            According to this Taiwanese news channel

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                            • Indian army's morale got a boost after this standoff. The same cannot be said of the PLA.

                              That can be deduced from the speed in which they dismantled their defenses at Pangong.

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	finger 4 china symbol_.jpg Views:	0 Size:	30.2 KB ID:	1572417

                              They marked out finger 5 as Chinese territory for the world to see.

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	finger 5_.jpg Views:	0 Size:	67.9 KB ID:	1572418

                              Only to have to erase it later (!)

                              Couldn't have gone down well with their troops.

                              Best of luck motivating them to come again
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Mar 21,, 17:13.

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                              • Good discussion with Gen Ravi Shankar.



                                Ayesha Siddiqui mentioning the Paks wanting the LAC to turn into another LOC isn't feasible.

                                It's tough to man such a long, mountainous stretch for both sides.

                                If then there is firing the LAC will degenerate and become unstable.

                                Instability for the PLA is in Tibet, for us it is in our own area.

                                If Tibet becomes unstable they will have bigger problems

                                Don't see the General on the usual TV shows, only knew of him through his blog, Gunners Shot.

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