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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Originally posted by kuku View Post
    The Chinese and Pakistanis have this strange delusion that we Indians are warm climate people.
    Our military is consistently training for high altitude warfare and is very good at carrying out very fast and daring maneuvers in treacherous mountainous terrain. also have a huge pool of people to recruit from who are well suited for high altitude life for 1000s of years.
    The last place they want to fight us is in high and cold places.
    You were asking how much have they encroached into Arunachal. AIM has an answer here

    Tracks coming in about 2-3 kms with no permanent fixtures. Road blocks erected. No sign of camps, habitation or permanent occupation. He does not mention extent so its in some areas only one assumes.

    What do we do to stop this ? a barbed wire means we're delineating the border which the Chinese will then say they keep Aksai Chin. The govt does not want to concede that so they refuse to settle the border and continue to claim Aksai Chin. That is the face saving approach GOI employs.

    The next question is more interesting. What stops India doing the same salami slicing approach to China. We do make incursions into their territory but we never set up anything permanent. We just patrol.

    We never push them. We don't have the guts to annex their territory.

    We don't grab territory permanently like the Chinese do.

    Until we can do that they won't believe we're as strong as we think.

    So in future we can expect in some parts of Arunachal a replay of what happened in Ladakh.

    The Indian side in AP is the rainward part of the slope not leeward. Extremely wet and forested. Will be difficult to detect encroachments as its heavily forested and satellites can't see under the forest canopy. Any tracks formed will have grass grow over if not used frequently. Erasing any activity after a year or two. But the tracks there are not going away. So the PLA is patrolling there and there aren't any reciprocal tracks from the Indian side up to those same areas. So those parts are in danger.


    The terrain in AP is harder than in Ladakh according to those that served there.

    Second, there is something strange he mentions here. We map Chinese territory but not Indian territory for some reason. The media or the govt won't do it.

    So the commanders have no clue of what happens on the Indian side. They have no access to satellite imagery on the India side !!!

    We may look at Indian territory but there are no permanent copies stored.

    Why ??

    The reason is odd, having possession of satellite imagery of the Indian side leaves you open to accusations of being a spy (!)

    Easy to get scapegoated for whatever.

    AIM's on full GOI critique mode as usual
    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Nov 20,, 12:30.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      You were asking how much have they encroached into Arunachal. AIM has an answer here

      Tracks coming in about 2-3 kms with no permanent fixtures. Road blocks erected. No sign of camps, habitation or permanent occupation. He does not mention extent so its in some areas only one assumes.

      What do we do to stop this ? a barbed wire means we're delineating the border which the Chinese will then say they keep Aksai Chin. The govt does not want to concede that so they refuse to settle the border and continue to claim Aksai Chin. That is the face saving approach GOI employs.

      The next question is more interesting. What stops India doing the same salami slicing approach to China. We do make incursions into their territory but we never set up anything permanent. We just patrol.

      We never push them. We don't have the guts to annex their territory.

      We don't grab territory permanently like the Chinese do.

      Until we can do that they won't believe we're as strong as we think.

      So in future we can expect in some parts of Arunachal a replay of what happened in Ladakh.

      The Indian side in AP is the rainward part of the slope not leeward. Extremely wet and forested. Will be difficult to detect encroachments as its heavily forested and satellites can't see under the forest canopy. Any tracks formed will have grass grow over if not used frequently. Erasing any activity after a year or two. But the tracks there are not going away. So the PLA is patrolling there and there aren't any reciprocal tracks from the Indian side up to those same areas. So those parts are in danger.

      The terrain in AP is harder than in Ladakh according to those that served there.

      Second, there is something strange he mentions here. We map Chinese territory but not Indian territory for some reason. The media or the govt won't do it.

      So the commanders have no clue of what happens on the Indian side. They have no access to satellite imagery on the India side !!!

      We may look at Indian territory but there are no permanent copies stored.

      Why ??

      The reason is odd, having possession of satellite imagery of the Indian side leaves you open to accusations of being a spy (!)

      Easy to get scapegoated for whatever.

      AIM's on full GOI critique mode as usual
      Very informative.

      If we prepare to take territory with force, the buildup will be well visible, moreover, the doctrine doesn't talk about it.
      We can show extreme aggression in dealing with the common dispute with Bhutan, rake up the US and allied support with armed confrontations there.

      On the AP side, the Army commanders in their own budgets can get very high-quality maps without satellite imagery, domestic companies have the unmanned autonomous aerial vehicles to do the job with very good sensors, good enough even to count the individual trees, houses, map all the streams etc. etc.

      They can get all of this on a monthly basis on a rental basis (equipment and men with data exclusively store in their networks.) if they collect the budgets then even on a daily basis. I could even give them a proposal to do that.

      I know of the military forces taking similar services for very high-end breach and attack simulations, bypassing large tendering processes.
      But i see that still keeps you are a spy question open.


      PRC will never realize its global power ambitions till it is able to settle its border disputes with India.
      Last edited by kuku; 19 Nov 20,, 15:57.

      Comment


      • China Sets Up Village Within Bhutan, 9 Km From Doklam Face-Off Site

        The move is particularly worrying for India since it is responsible for the territorial integrity of Bhutan which mains a limited armed force.

        WorldReported by Vishnu SomUpdated: November 19, 2020 8:54 pm IST

        https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/chin...f-site-2327563


        This is the sort of bullshit PRC is pulling.

        Dragging India into another conflict along the border.

        It does require a response from India in the form of a mid-night raid with the village blown to bits.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kuku View Post
          I know of the military forces taking similar services for very high-end breach and attack simulations, bypassing large tendering processes.
          But i see that still keeps you are a spy question open.
          Just can't get my head around that. How is this not an issue in other countries ?

          It sounds ludicrous

          Comment


          • Can we think of the present standoff as a Chinese Op. Parakaram ?

            We didn't attack any thing of theirs though

            Comment


            • The Chinese ego is a fragile thing, you never know when you offend it.

              Plus It is clear that for China to become the global power
              1. its border issues with India should be clear.
              2. India must not be engaged in Anti China alliances.
              For this coercive use of force before making India sign a buch of ball cutting treaties will be required.

              Comment




              • Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                  China Sets Up Village Within Bhutan, 9 Km From Doklam Face-Off Site

                  The move is particularly worrying for India since it is responsible for the territorial integrity of Bhutan which mains a limited armed force.

                  WorldReported by Vishnu SomUpdated: November 19, 2020 8:54 pm IST

                  https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/chin...f-site-2327563


                  This is the sort of bullshit PRC is pulling.

                  Dragging India into another conflict along the border.

                  It does require a response from India in the form of a mid-night raid with the village blown to bits.
                  Setting up a village in or near Bhutanese territory is a red flag for India. This would mean that PRC is inviting a military response from India.

                  We would need to destroy this village, even if the costs are high.

                  It is time for violent actions.

                  Time for war is here, I hope our leadership is able to stand strong now and do what is necessary and not commit another historical blunder by letting this be.

                  They are showing their cards now, building up forces on the border, pushing our neighbours to start boundary disputes with us, pushing our friendly nations, these rough heads have started the regional power games, feeling safe behind the trillions of dollars they have made from other nations.
                  Last edited by kuku; 20 Nov 20,, 16:03.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    There is nothing funny about this tight lipped guy, always looks like he is holding a fart.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                      The move is particularly worrying for India since it is responsible for the territorial integrity of Bhutan which mains a limited armed force.

                      This is the sort of bullshit PRC is pulling.

                      Dragging India into another conflict along the border.

                      It does require a response from India in the form of a mid-night raid with the village blown to bits.
                      Let's wait for more confirmations to come out

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	no chinese village.jpg Views:	0 Size:	36.7 KB ID:	1568799

                      click the above to be taken to the tweet

                      Originally posted by kuku View Post
                      Dragging India into another conflict along the border.
                      Expect more of these provocations as time goes on.

                      We will fashion a response to them as well.

                      Going by our performance over the last six months
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Nov 20,, 16:26.

                      Comment


                      • One does see now that this is about a constant confrontation with India in order to be the dominant regional power.

                        This Village even if it's near Bhutan and not in Bhutanese territory is a good way to counter them, we need to carry out an aggressive action on them and then set up an ambush for the retaliating PLA party.

                        There have been enough of these actions, PLA patrols need to be ambushed throughout the border
                        Last edited by kuku; 21 Nov 20,, 06:06.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                          One does see now that this is about a constant confrontation with India in order to be the dominant regional power.
                          Right, that is the way to look at it. This standoff is just the start of a new relationship with them.

                          This is the point Amb Bambawale is making when he says, China is not interested in a stable prosperous relationship with India in the months and years ahead but rather a tense, unbalanced and deteriorating one

                          This is not going to be an Asian century but solely a Chinese one (!)

                          Interesting seminar they had on Nalapat's home turf. Manipal uni.

                          Originally posted by kuku View Post
                          This Village even if it's near Bhutan and not in Bhutanese territory is a good way to counter them, we need to carry out an aggressive action on them and then set up an ambush for the retaliating PLA party.

                          There have been enough of these actions, PLA patrols need to be ambushed throughout the border
                          Military action alone won't be enough. It has to be backed up by reciprocal actions in the economic as well as political spheres.

                          Political means we build up alliances. Quad along with UK, France, Germany.

                          Economical means without peace on the border there cannot be business as usual.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Nov 20,, 11:38.

                          Comment


                          • RCEP.

                            So, containing China is on the QUAD's mind, and also on the minds of Indonesia, Vietnam, Singapore etcetera. And they will be pumping money into China's coffers with this trade partnership, to make China more strong militarily.

                            All these countries should have waited for the next US Presidential transition period to end, then talked with the US/UK/EU, left China out, and signed a democratic trade agreement. The fcuks that countries have as leaders........
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • Yes, we do need diplomatic alliances, the diplomatic power of the quad can really hurt the Chinese.
                              And China is making every effort to piss off everyone at the same time.
                              Economically, we need to decouple from China to the maximum extent possible and push the global agenda for the economic isolation of China.

                              But first of all, we need to stop these coercive military movements of PRC and put a physical price on all military maneuvers they try, which have to involve killing and capturing their soldiers, this confrontation with PRC is not going to become soft or go away, this is hear to stay for the foreseeable future.
                              Without this, we will not be able to sit down across with the neighbors and tell them that entertaining PRCs coercive policies against us will have costs for them.

                              We need to communicate to our public that PRC intends us harm, and to undermine our freedom and prosperity, and our relations with them will be violent from hereonforwards.



                              Last edited by kuku; 21 Nov 20,, 13:07.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                                this confrontation with PRC is not going to become soft or go away, this is hear to stay for the foreseeable future.
                                Without this, we will not be able to sit down across with the neighbors and tell them that entertaining PRCs coercive policies against us will have costs for them.

                                We need to communicate to our public that PRC intends us harm, and to undermine our freedom and prosperity, and our relations with them will be violent from hereonforwards.
                                Those bolded bits are what needs to be done but the difficult part is getting the public to buy into it.

                                People I speak to think all this standoff business will go away in another six months and things will be back to usual.

                                Part of it is denial, the other part is nobody wants tension.

                                If the govt pushes too hard on this front they will be portrayed as war mongering. Creating instability and whatever the opposition can dream up.

                                The business lobby is quiet for now but they are another powerful pro China constituent that will oppose such rhetoric.

                                To decouple is possible where alternatives exist. Until such time we continue to trade with China.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Nov 20,, 13:47.

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