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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • China insists on package solution for dispute with Bhutan

    Just now, China not de-escalating, still has heavy troop presence on Ladakh front: Sources
    Last edited by Oracle; 22 Jul 20,, 16:58.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • Right, so this is their non military way of getting the same thing. They can keep on claiming whatever they want nobody cares if they cannot do anything about it.

      We'll keep them company for as long as it takes. Longer this goes on they are the ones with nothing to show for as Kanwal Sibal pointed out.

      Comment


      • Right, so this is their non military way of getting the same thing. They can keep on claiming whatever they want nobody cares if they cannot do anything about it.

        We'll keep them company for as long as it takes. Longer this goes on they are the ones with nothing to show for as Kanwal Sibal pointed out.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          Right, so this is their non military way of getting the same thing. They can keep on claiming whatever they want nobody cares if they cannot do anything about it.

          We'll keep them company for as long as it takes. Longer this goes on they are the ones with nothing to show for as Kanwal Sibal pointed out.
          China has occupied the whole of Doklam, only the tri-junction has been saved by the IA in 2017.

          Xi's 'strong' obsession reason for China's behaviour: Experts

          A variety of reasons like growing domestic discontent against Chinese President Xi Jinping's economic policies, his obsession to look strong and concerns about international legitimacy may be driving China's misadventures in eastern Ladakh and South China Sea, global strategic affairs experts said on Thursday.

          They said the tensions have added to a sense of apprehension in the United States, Europe and parts of Asia that China will engage in more aggressive behaviour in pursuit of its territorial interests, which in turn has raised the possibility of a serious and coordinated pushback by leading global players.

          "There are certainly economic costs China will bear," said Paul Staniland, Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago."The question that we can't answer yet is how severe the economic cost actually will be, and, above all, how much pain the Chinese leadership is willing to accept relative to the gains it sees from advancing a more assertive posture in the region," he said.

          China's actions in eastern Ladakh fit the pattern of its aggressive behaviour in other parts of Asia, including the South China Sea and East China Sea where it has made territorial claims, often on historical precedent and in the case of the Philippines by ignoring international legal ruling. Principally, it has disputes with Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Brunei, Cambodia and Vietnam among others.

          Vipin Narang, an Associate Professor of Political Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said China's strenuous attempts to expand its assertive influence and territorial claims along the Line of Actual Control in eastern Ladakh and elsewhere in Asia could be the result of a variety of reasons.

          "It could be anything from opportunism to concerns about India completing the infrastructure projects such as the DS-DBO (Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie) road to concerns about international or domestic legitimacy, where Xi Jinping believes he cannot afford to look weak," he said.

          China mobilised its forces in the Western sector of the LAC in huge numbers taking advantage of India's preoccupation with the COVID-19 pandemic.

          "China exploited a window of opportunity to make shallow penetrations across a variety of points simultaneously," said Narang, also a fellow at Harvard University's Olin Institute for Strategic Studies.

          The 255-km long DS-DBO road that Border Roads Organisation built over a period of two decades connects Leh to strategically important Daulat Beg Oldie near the Karakoram Pass. The road runs along Shyok and Tangtse rivers and gives India access to several strategically key points.

          Besides engaging in a major military standoff with India in eastern Ladakh, China has been expanding its maritime offensive in the South China Sea and East China Sea displaying an attempt at aggressive consolidation of control over contested territories when the world has been battling the COVID-19 pandemic that has killed over 6,00,000 people globally.

          Another strategic affairs expert, Dr Laxman Behera, said Xi's economic policies are triggering resentment in China and the offensive on the border could be a reason to divert attention and bolster his stature.

          He noted that the Chinese are never transparent about what they do. "Nobody knows their intention. It is a very opaque society," he said.

          This was evident from the fact that the Chinese never gave details of the casualties they suffered in the Galwan Valley clashes on June 15 while India was upfront and reported 20 deaths. According to an American intelligence report, Chinese suffered 35 casualties.

          China will "never care about their casualties and they are very good at hiding all the facts. The fact is that there were severe casualties on their side. But they never tell it to their population. That is the way they do things," Dr Behera said.

          India's former Deputy Chief of Army Staff Lt Gen (retd) Subrata Saha also said that China did not release their casualty figures because it feared a domestic backlash in China upon hearing about human loss.

          Chinese Ambassador Sun Weidong had refused to address important questions such as: Why China resorted to aggressive military behaviour when fighting COVID-19 was paramount for the world; what was the motive behind the massive buildup of troops and why the Chinese military carried out the brutal assault on Indian soldiers in Galwan Valley.

          The Chinese envoy was also asked whether China will punish the soldiers involved in the attacks on Indian soldiers in Galwan Valley and what was the Chinese casualty figure. However, Sun sidestepped the questions.

          Gen Saha said the ambassador's reticence was the outcome of China's autocratic system, which is "very strictly controlled" and where it is perfectly normal for people lower in the hierarchy to sidestep issues for which they do not have clearance unlike in India where democracy allows officials to speak their mind.

          "It is no surprise that people are reluctant to speak out. It is driven by the fact that the total power is consolidated in one single authority -- president of the country, general secretary of the Communist party, chairman of the central military commission, all the powers are vested in one person," he said.

          "Therefore, it is a very strongman kind of a rule. Therefore, it is not abnormal for people down the line to be reluctant to speak anything for which they do not have clearance," he added.

          But, experts say, this secrecy and the military belligerence, will come at an economic cost to China.

          Staniland, the University of Chicago expert, said the extent of possible economic losses depends on whether countries like India and Vietnam can effectively compete with the communist nation, and whether firms in the US, Japan, and Europe will actually change their behaviour.

          "I think China's behaviour has certainly increased the likelihood of serious, coordinated pushback against its behaviour. That said, it's too early to tell what the long-term impact will be," said Staniland, who is also a non-resident scholar in the South Asia Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

          "There is no doubt that China wants to reshape some key aspects of the world order to its advantage," he added.

          Meanwhile, Tilak Devasher, a member of the National Security Advisory Board, said that China's offensive in eastern Ladakh has dented its international image, adding "there are reasons to believe that there are also domestic considerations for president Xi to be so reckless."

          But "the rest of the world has shown that it will not accept China's bullying tactics. Many countries, especially democracies, are coming together to resist China. There will be a substantial economic cost for China," Devasher added.

          "The fact that it has hidden its casualties indicates that the losses were severe and it did not want the public and the world to know about it. There has been anger in China about the soldiers not getting proper last rites. The world watched how the Indian martyrs were given full military honours in their respective places," he said.

          "This lack of honouring its deceased soldiers has reflected poorly on China's military prowess. Secondly, it has shown that China will not respect bilateral or international agreements or it will respect them only so far as it suits them. Thus, it has proved that for China such agreements have no sanctity. Rest of the world will have to tailor their policies accordingly," he added.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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          • After FDI, Chinese companies now face curbs in getting govt contracts

            Good. I don't want a single paisa of taxpayers money to go into PLA's bullying kitty.

            LAC standoff: Diplomacy cut no ice with China, feels govt

            GoI is high on drugs. Diplomacy went out of the window after the Galwan Valley clashes.

            India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER missiles under emergency order: Sources

            6 years of the Modi government, they did nothing w.r.t. defence preparedness.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              After FDI, Chinese companies now face curbs in getting govt contracts

              Good. I don't want a single paisa of taxpayers money to go into PLA's bullying kitty.
              The question is why are Chinese companies able to undercut Indian companies and still make a profit? I don't see Chinese companies bidding for road building contracts in the US and Canada.

              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              LAC standoff: Diplomacy cut no ice with China, feels govt

              GoI is high on drugs. Diplomacy went out of the window after the Galwan Valley clashes.
              And deny them their paycheques and cut into their little Office Empires? Are you freaking serious?
              Chimo

              Comment


              • I'm not sure whether this was the right thing to say at this time. Should keep the Russians happy

                India Won’t Be Part Of Any Alliance: Jaishankar | SNG | Jul 21 2020

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  The question is why are Chinese companies able to undercut Indian companies and still make a profit? I don't see Chinese companies bidding for road building contracts in the US and Canada.
                  Bureaucratic corruption. Everybody wants their percentage.

                  And deny them their paycheques and cut into their little Office Empires? Are you freaking serious?
                  I posted an article in the 'Entitlement' thread, where the writer suggest the Modi government to close down 20 ministries, which I have been saying since time immemorial. Too many ministries, too many laws & regulations = endemic corruption.

                  Any business license in India, firstly, getting one is like winning a war, then every year that license needs to be renewed. Why it needs to be renewed, I still don't understand. The process is same when applying for a license and renewing them = greasing palms and having contacts.

                  If I have a liquor license, I'll pay my taxes right? Then why do I need to renew it every year? Coz' the chain of corrupt money needs to be maintained. I refuse to believe the Modi government doesn't know about it, but they don't acknowledge this issue and solve it. Afterall, they need money to win elections. Corrupt people should be stripped and shot in public squares, I feel very strongly about this. Want to earn money, work the F hard.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    I'm not sure whether this was the right thing to say at this time. Should keep the Russians happy

                    India Won’t Be Part Of Any Alliance: Jaishankar | SNG | Jul 21 2020
                    This reads like - India will never be a part of any alliance, but will work with like minded democracies.

                    Jaishanker is a diplomat, first and foremost, maybe he & you are both right, as it will be soundbytes for the Russians. But, for China. Anyway, it confirms what was always India's strategic policy, non-alignment/non-interference. Having said that, a lot of Indo-US relations are under the table, not for public consumption. Afterall, the Modi government wants to maintain a strong nationalistic face infront of 1.3 billion Indians, and if US helps come out in the open, that woud mean losing face. We still are heavily dependent on real-time US intel.

                    I would have thrown India open to all kinds of FDI, barring some and enemy countries. If the right team can be formed, policies aligned, in 10 years we can be close to a developed country. Which in other words mean, few people sleep with an empty stomach each night.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      What I said above comes from the articles I posted.

                      I have read many things on the 1962 war. Many journalists/authors/defence personnel, writing articles, one doesn't conforming with the other. So let's clear up things here once and for all.

                      Give me a chronology of the events that happened during the 1962 war vis-a-vis US/Russia/Pakistan. Did we get some bullets from the US? Maybe some bombs? What?
                      I read an article in TIME magazine that said the US & UK rushed weapons over when they attacked. Mostly guns. I confirmed this with someone that served in that war. That's it.

                      The article was dated around the time the war began. This was over ten years back and there was a short window where TIME allowed open access to their archive. I had book marked a lot of articles from the 50s, one from '53 titled irrational exhuberance, demanding to know why Nehru was allowing a road to be built on Indian territory without confronting China about it. Didn't download any unfortunately.

                      Tanvi Madan in talks about her latest book goes as far as to say Nehru wanted US airbases in India after the war but that did not happen. Imagine that.

                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      I was wrong about Nehru's forward policy too. Forward policy took effect after the clashes of 1959. It was defensive. But the Chinese made it look like we were the aggressors, which the CPC is trying very much now (Galwan clashes) but their only success is within China.
                      Unless some one tells me otherwise the Galwan incident was about countering water coercion by China. They stopped the flow some how we went in and released it. Satellite pictures do not indicate how they stopped the flow just that there was no water pre Jun 15 and the next satellite grabs have the water flowing normally again.

                      If China tries that stunt again with any more rivers our reaction will be predictable.

                      Yes, it was worth losing 20 of our braves for it.

                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Henderson-Brook's report is tilted in favour of China. Someone said that. Fine. What about IA's own assessment of that war. Why is the BJP government not releasing it even now? What are we hiding? Incompetencies galore during that period. Isn't 1962 a good enough stick to beat the Congress dead with.
                      Neville Maxwell released the first part of that report back in 2014. There wasn't anything new in it.

                      The second part is confidential which i gather is because we don't have a boundary settlement as yet. So releasing it would compromise our position.

                      That is the only reason for it to be classified to this day that i can think of. Any incompetencies are already pretty well documented.

                      Don't hold your breath for any bomb shell that will negatively affect the Gandhi family. Indira got even and Rajiv kept it up until his trip to Beijing with Deng in '88.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 20,, 13:27.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                        This reads like - India will never be a part of any alliance, but will work with like minded democracies.

                        Jaishanker is a diplomat, first and foremost, maybe he & you are both right, as it will be soundbytes for the Russians. But, for China. Anyway, it confirms what was always India's strategic policy, non-alignment/non-interference. Having said that, a lot of Indo-US relations are under the table, not for public consumption. Afterall, the Modi government wants to maintain a strong nationalistic face infront of 1.3 billion Indians, and if US helps come out in the open, that woud mean losing face. We still are heavily dependent on real-time US intel.

                        I would have thrown India open to all kinds of FDI, barring some and enemy countries. If the right team can be formed, policies aligned, in 10 years we can be close to a developed country. Which in other words mean, few people sleep with an empty stomach each night.
                        The US does not want a dominant power on either side of the Eurasian landmass. We don't one in Asia.

                        Our goals aligned since independence. I cannot see this changing even if the CCP were somehow to be overthrown and China becomes democratic. People need to understand getting in bed with the Americans does not entail having kids with them.

                        I recall an article Robert Kaplan wrote ten years back that said should that happen China would become even more nationalistic than it is presently. Apparently the commies have a better handle on nationalism than any free govt. Really ? does any one think Modi cannot control the nationalists.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 20,, 13:19.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          The question is why are Chinese companies able to undercut Indian companies and still make a profit? I don't see Chinese companies bidding for road building contracts in the US and Canada.
                          Another important point. When government contracts are announced (central or state), the lowest (L1) bidder wins it. And we know how the Chinese undercut competition, and how corrupt our bureaucrats are. Marriage made in heaven.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                          • I just think what Jaishankar said was unnecessary. The Americans have been taking a keen interest in this border clash. Maybe too keen. Fits in with their present narrative.

                            Why discourage them : )

                            We just put in an order for Mig-29's. No need to signal anything to Russia.

                            So who is that comment directed at then ? domestic consumption maybe
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 20,, 14:41.

                            Comment


                            • ^ Agree. That was unnecessary at the moment. But, US understands India's domestic compulsions. Won't have any effect on ties. Lot of things move under the table, like how it was with Israel earlier. The anti-US lobby, as well as opposition needs to be placated. And as far as Russia is concerned, they don't give a damn which countries go to war with overlapping claims on islands in the ECS/SCS. Russia understands, all of the democratic worlds' ire is directed towards China now. Putin probably is the most satisfied man now.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                              • India moves to buy 6 more Poseidons from US for $1.8bn

                                Thank you, Xi. :D
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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