Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[Officer of Engineers]

If you're talking about the headline, then 'clickbait' headline attract local audience. Web portals have to generate revenue afterall.

I mean the entire thing. A GREAT VICTORY? It was a FEAKING BRAWL. The only thing this article showed (if true) is that the Indians are better at HTH combat and maybe a shield wall since I've seen no shields on the Chinese side.

I WOULD NOT USE THIS ENTIRE INCIDENT AS ANY INDICATION OF MILITARY PROWNESS BY EITHER SIDE.

We have a saying in the Combat Engineers. If you're close enough for HTH, this means either the other side is too far up front and their artillery is about to fall or we're too far up front and our artillery is about to fall. In either case, RUN AWAY. I don't freaking care if your entire force comprised of ninja clad Bruce Lees. You're not going to Bruce Lee your way out of incoming fire.

In a REAL MILITARY FIGHT, the Chinese would plummel you with artillery fire and any Indian soldier who could survive the over blast and shrapnel would still be in physical shock/disoriented. Before your soldiers could recover from the shock, the Chinese would be on you. For Pete sakes, the whole reason why we invented firearms is so we don't have to do HTH. If you're outnumbered, throw a grenade.

A great military victory my ass. It was a brawl. FULL STOP!

[Oracle]

I mean the entire thing. A GREAT VICTORY? It was a FEAKING BRAWL. The only thing this article showed (if true) is that the Indians are better at HTH combat and maybe a shield wall since I've seen no shields on the Chinese side.

I WOULD NOT USE THIS ENTIRE INCIDENT AS ANY INDICATION OF MILITARY PROWNESS BY EITHER SIDE.

We have a saying in the Combat Engineers. If you're close enough for HTH, this means either the other side is too far up front and their artillery is about to fall or we're too far up front and our artillery is about to fall. In either case, RUN AWAY. I don't freaking care if your entire force comprised of ninja clad Bruce Lees. You're not going to Bruce Lee your way out of incoming fire.

A great military victory my ass. It was a brawl. FULL STOP!

Sir, you're taking this article more seriously than anyone else here.

In a REAL MILITARY FIGHT, the Chinese would plummel you with artillery fire and any Indian soldier who could survive the over blast and shrapnel would still be in physical shock/disoriented. Before your soldiers could recover from the shock, the Chinese would be on you. For Pete sakes, the whole reason why we invented firearms is so we don't have to do HTH. If you're outnumbered, throw a grenade.

What's stopping the communists?

You have the intel, you have your sources, you're ex-mil, I'm a civilian, tell me.

Whatever the Galwan Valley incident was, it meant in no certain terms, that India is a pushover. 1962, replied back in kind in 1967. This is 2020.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, you're taking this article more seriously than anyone else here.

You posted it. I can comment.

What's stopping the communists?

What do they win? More rocks.

You have the intel, you have your sources, you're ex-mil, I'm a civilian, tell me.

Whatever the Galwan Valley incident was, it meant in no certain terms, that India is a pushover. 1962, replied back in kind in 1967. This is 2020.

You're going to lose and lose big if you want to keep fighting the last war.

[Oracle]

You posted it. I can comment.

Yes you can. You argue, I argue, this argument goes nowhere. I didn't post this article for people to measure who's got the bigger d!ck. What I found interesting was that the brawl went on for 4 rounds, which I didn't know earlier.

What do they win? More rocks.

So, why do the communists want rocks from our land?

You're going to lose and lose big if you want to keep fighting the last war.

I can accept losing with valor and courage. Losing does not equal to defeat. Defeat is in our minds, you'd know better.

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes you can. You argue, I argue, this argument goes nowhere. I didn't post this article for people to measure who's got the bigger d!ck. What I found interesting was that the brawl went on for 4 rounds, which I didn't know earlier.

Still does not change the fact that it was a freaking brawl with ZERO military significance.

So, why do the communists want rocks from our land?

They don't want your rocks. They're testing your resolve and response. Hence, zero military excalation from their side.

I can accept losing with valor and courage. Losing does not equal to defeat. Defeat is in our minds, you'd know better.

If you're not fighting to win, you're already defeated. But you misunderstood the reference. Using the past to predict your enemy is the quickest way to be surprised by your enemy.

[Double Edge]

After ban on 59 Chinese apps, government blocks 47 more

Now the Americans are thinking about banning Tiktok

Trump says US looking into banning TikTok | TOI | Jul 29 2020

Earlier in July, US secretary of state Mike Pompeo said the Trump administration was considering a ban on access to the TikTok application over privacy concerns. The social network claims user data is safe and not shared with Chinese authorities.

Meanwhile, Beijing has called on Washington to stop using government mechanisms to pressure Chinese companies.

Hehe, such irony when Chinese SOE's were set free with the full support of the CCP

[Double Edge]

This is one way to give China something else to think about vs mountain warfare, although at the rate the PLAN are building warships this COA from India may have already been considered.


Link: https://warontherocks.com/2020/07/in...ina-challenge/

Key paragraphs:

“In a bid to achieve a leading role in the region, India needs to seek more support from regional powers,” opined the Global Times. “Intending to invite Australia to the Malabar drill can be seen as pursuing support from Australia. If New Delhi is bolstered by Canberra, it will help India to expand its influence into the South Pacific via the Strait of Malacca, in line with India’s whole strategic thinking.” (The revelation that China fears India’s aspirations to be the regional hegemon may come as a pleasant surprise in New Delhi).

What turned India’s mind around on the issue? There were whispers of Australia’s Malabar inclusion at the start of the year. However, it appears that recent events in the Himalayas could have been a turning point. India suspects China is moving to claim its territory high in the Himalayas, most recently in Ladakh’s Galwan Valley, where soldiers from both sides engaged in hand-to-hand combat last month, with at least 20 deaths reported. By all accounts, the incident left a deep imprint on New Delhi, with officials realizing the urgency of the need to clearly signal that it is moving to contain China.

Was going through this and found some interesting links

Who really killed the Quad 1.0? | The Interpreter | Jun 02 2020

Apparently it was the Aussie right that put out this line that Rudd killed the Quad. He denies it. And the explanation given is the Americans wanted to take it slow.

But if you read what Jeff Smith from the Heritage foundation says

Two weeks earlier, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had welcomed an infuential visitor to Tokyo, U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney. The two discussed the possibility of building on the cooperative experience of the tsunami core group and forming a new quadrilateral security dialogue. Vice President Cheney then traveled to Canberra where he briefed Australian Prime Minister John Howard on the plan.

The Australian government welcomed the idea in principle, but did “not wish to hurry the process and wants to ensure that the heightened relationship with Japan is settled before embarking on any new arrangements.”

Nevertheless, the new initiative moved quickly.

lol, so both US & Oz say the other wanted to take it slow : D

[Oracle]

India has “demonstrated it has the will and the capabilities to stand up to China"

China not a threat to India: Envoy Sun Weidong

[Oracle]

Still does not change the fact that it was a freaking brawl with ZERO military significance.

They don't want your rocks. They're testing your resolve and response. Hence, zero military excalation from their side.

If you're not fighting to win, you're already defeated. But you misunderstood the reference. Using the past to predict your enemy is the quickest way to be surprised by your enemy.

Yeah, to hell with China. I am not intimidated by the cold war thinking that you put out. Different generation, different thinking.

If not staging points on those hills, then what? Probing? The communists are probing us for 7 decades, and we lose land mile by mile. You say rocks, it's our damn rocks.

How about the Americans slice and dice Canadian territory? Will you be fine with that? Thank your lucky stars your country is 10000 miles way from any geo-political conflict.

We have lost enough through 1000s of years of civilizational history. No more. With the GoI support, each of us will fight China if it comes to that, atleast I will. These are my lands that China want. I am not giving any shit to those godless genocidal communists.

[Officer of Engineers]

Yeah, to hell with China. I am not intimidated by the cold war thinking that you put out.

Oh horse puckey. War comes down to two things since the days of the cavemen clubbing each other. Find the enemy. Kill the enemy. Cold War thinking? You're right. We were thinking how to kill 100s of 1000s of soldiers and millions of civilians. We couldn't give a rat's ass about a brawl. If you think this brawl meant anything, then you truly don't know what it means to goto war. War is ugly, painful, and unbearable, even when you win. You think Bangladesh was a great victory? How much money have you spent on that country and still can't keep illegals from crossing your border?

Different generation, different thinking.

Please educate me what this different thinking is. From what I can see, it is plain ego tailored to get your own people killed for zero strategic gains. Are you telling me that your generation knows more about killing than mine? My brigade had tac nukes. Can you say any of the InA units have such firepower?

If not staging points on those hills, then what? Probing? The communists are probing us for 7 decades, and we lose land mile by mile. You say rocks, it's our damn rocks.

Are you going to lose men to keep those rocks or are you going to use those rocks to kill the enemy? I know which I would do. Because the Chinese just learned exactly how to do just that. An entire Indian coy rushed forward with zero back up and zero covering fire since obviously no one at Bde level knew what was going on.

How about the Americans slice and dice Canadian territory? Will you be fine with that? Thank your lucky stars your country is 10000 miles way from any geo-political conflict.

It was called the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the Fenian Raids. Canada and the US had went to war and up until WWI, we had plans to invade each other.

We have lost enough through 1000s of years of civilizational history. No more. With the GoI support, each of us will fight China if it comes to that, atleast I will. These are my lands that China want. I am not giving any shit to those godless genocidal communists.

Oh horse puckey! For 1000s of years, you were a bunch of kingdoms fighting each other and even the Moghuls were nothing more than Persianized Mongols/Turks. You were conquering and being conquered by yourselves. It was not until the British came that you truly had a non-Asiatic power ruling over you. You've lost nothing because you were fighting the powers that made up India today.

I don't give a shit about your petty squabbles. I have no dog in this fight but I can see what is going on. If you want to jump in front of a blazing machine gun, be my guest. If you want to learn how to make that machine gun useless, then check your ego and read what the hell is going on. Keep thumping your chest if you want. I'm too old and buried enough people for that kind of useless shit.

[Officer of Engineers]

And for your education

Kings and Generals - YouTube

Especially concentrate on Central Asia/South Asia but do not neglect the Western military history. These DETAILS MILITARY THINKING! You WILL LEARN that MUCH OF WHAT I'VE SAID IS NOT NEW AND IS AS APPLICABLE TODAY AS THEY WERE 2000 years ago. The debate between cataphracts and horse archers is the same debate we're having between mechanized infantry vs tank armies.

BTW, there's nothing wrong the the ARJUN. It was a sound and proper design. Your logistics and engineers can't keep up. That's the only thing that is wrong with the ARJUN.

And just to show you how history still play a role in modern military thinking. If the terrain can support horse calvary armies, it can support modern armies.

Or how about you? Until I mentioned it, did you ever thought the Siachen Glacier was an invasion route? It was obvious to me once DE showed me the article. So, how exactly is my "Cold War thinking" not applicable? And did it ever occur to you that the Chinese are also trying to figure out how to Find the Enemy and Kill the Enemy. I can assure you that they're doing their damndest to out-think the InA. You, as in you personally, are either tooi lazy or too egotistic to try to do the same to them.

[Oracle]

And for your education

Kings and Generals - YouTube

Wow, this is like a treasure trove of information. It will take months for me to go through considering the internet speed I have here. Don't you worry, I'll respond to your post later. Why don't we have a thread here, where you post all links/websites/YouTube channels etc?

OTOH, what I think is, the easiest way to win against you, is to go to Canada and steal your booze, when you're secretely lip syncing in a Celine Dion concert. :D

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We don't have the nukes to match China. We can, but then we'll have to cut spends in essentials like healthcare (which is shitty now), infrastructure (which is shitty now), education (which is shitty now), defence (which is shitty now), etcetera. We have a protectionist economy, which is marred by RW stupid groups like 'Swadeshi Jagran Manch'. 99% of our government officials are corrupt, which makes it extremely tough to deliver essential services to the poor and middle class. There are infinite problems, which ofcourse has infinite solutions, but our 'babus' don't want to put in the least effort to make our country a better place. I don't think I'll see India becoming a developed country in my lifetime.

[Officer of Engineers]

Wow, this is like a treasure trove of information. It will take months for me to go through considering the internet speed I have here. Don't you worry, I'll respond to your post later. Why don't we have a thread here, where you post all links/websites/YouTube channels etc?

The stuff I read will cure you of insomnia. It's not the easiest reading material and in fact quite dry.

OTOH, what I think is, the easiest way to win against you, is to go to Canada and steal your booze, when you're secretely lip syncing in a Celine Dion concert. :D

You do know I have dogs.

We don't have the nukes to match China.

But you can out-think them. You have had great Generals and great Officers. Capt Lemontree and LCol Deltacamelately are fine examples of truly well thinking officers. I refuse to believe the InA is not capable of at least giving more than a few headaches. Capt Lemontree on this very board already identified the LOC collapsed points in the Himalayas. And LCol DCL and I already discussed Pakistani strongpoints and their associated weaknesses.

And you have had General Sundarji whom I think is the modern Sun Tzu. It was from him that I learned that Deterrance is Not Warfighting. Mind you, the Chinese also had their own Field Marshall Nie Rongzhen. These two men spearheaded the nuclear strategies so employed by India, Pakistan, and China.

In this context, deterrence had worked. There was no escalation towards war. Lives were lost. Egos were bruised. Leave it at that. The InA did their job and deterred the Chinese BY NOT forcing the Chinese to escalate.

[Oracle]

In this context, deterrence had worked. There was no escalation towards war. Lives were lost. Egos were bruised. Leave it at that. The InA did their job and deterred the Chinese BY NOT forcing the Chinese to escalate.

Yeah. I was not there fighting, and professionals know how to do their job better than me.

Got a phone call in the morning that my dad's paternal aunt (my grandma) passed away. She was 94. On one side of the crematorium, Covid-19 dead bodies were burnt. The other side was where regular dead were burnt. That place is gloomy. Saw 4 dead arrive after grandma. I'm dehydrated, exhausted and tired. From far, I wanted the Chinese to be taught a lesson. What would it cost? Lives, money, more lives, more money? We humans have a tendency to understand pain and the meaning of death when someone dearer passes away. Soldiers are an afterthought, they sign up to die, right? Wrong. That soldier is someone's son, father, husband, brother. We should never encourage to fight. Only defend. You're right, deterrence worked. I sound like a leftist now, right, Colonel. We both despise left, but we curse the right.

[Officer of Engineers]

My condolences and I pray a Divine Hand can guide and comfort you and your family through such grief.