Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[Double Edge]

China ordered attack on Indian troops in Galwan River Valley: US Intel

Ouch! How sh!t backfired.

Interview with the deputy editor of Foriegn policy Magazine, James Palmer a China expert, where he says this 'US Intel' business is not reliable as we don't know which agency did it.

Single source is questionable. Not reliable.

He's says US intel at the moment is leaky for political purposes.

I did find it odd when the claims earlier said US intel already knew how many PLA casualties

So US is piggybacking on the incident to do info war on China : )

He thinks its unlikely the Chinese would have given such an explicit order.

That the incident was more a product of the tense environment.

Fog of war. Accidental deaths leading to more deaths and subsequent chain of violence.

[Double Edge]

So what? The entire area is indefensible. It's an exercise in futility. You want to stop them? Man your own friggin machine gun nests. Get your engineers to plant and maintain minefields. Freeze and starve your men and machines more than they do.

Or you can man the choke points and let them freeze and starve.

Look. In 1962 with over half of year of prep work, the Chinese still collapsed their LOCs with zero help from the Indian Army. I have news for you. The prep work ain't any better. Machines drink more fuel than they did in 1962. Men still need 2000 calories a day just to live. And today's weapons spend more ammunition than they did in 1962.

Hit hard. Hit fast. And keep on hitting until the enemy is spent. The first two are doable. The last one still isn't no matter how long it has been from 1962.

Any one want to press OOE more on this ?

I like the idea of stripping the political layer off.

Do we even realise how much the political influences our thinking by interfering with the military to the point of smothering it ?

If you don't let the pros do their job you get a sub optimal outcome.

We don't get military solutions what we get is political theatre with the military used as props.

Never ending political pissing contests that both sides can exploit for their own political ends.

"India has surrendered 1000s of sq kms to China" the opposition thunders in parliament.

SO WHAT ?

Listening to James Palmer and he says Damansky island border conflict was ordered partially to bolster political positioning in Beijing during the cultural revolution by those responsible to demonstrate fervency, loyalty to the cause !!!

[Firestorm]

Any one want to press OOE more on this ?

I like the idea of stripping the political layer off.

How do you do that? Military action is always initiated with political objectives in mind. Including the current situation and the June 15 incident masterminded by Gen Zhao Zongqi if reports are to be believed, had a political objective rather than military.

[Double Edge]

How do you do that?

Follow his train of thought. Observe.

I would but then, that is a military decision. I want the Pakistanis and the Chinese to waste men and material in a place of not strategic importance, that can be easily cut off and destroyed. In fact, I would want them to build up those places as much as they can. The more they have up there, the more I can destroy ... much more easily than they can build.

That being said, I also realize that this is a political matter and that it matters more to a capital to hold the a line no matter how many men and machines are at risk.

What you are suggesting is instead of India raising numerous mountain divisions, strike corps and playing catch up with China in the border infrastructure race we should have just bombed the infrastructure on their side, TEN YEARS AGO : D

Could have saved loads

[Firestorm]

Follow his train of thought. Observe.

Let me rephrase my question. What is the point of doing that? Political objectives and realities cannot be wished away in the real world. You can analyse the situation after removing those but that is merely an academic exercise.

What you are suggesting is instead of India raising numerous mountain divisions, strike corps and playing catch up with China in the border infrastructure race we should have just bombed the infrastructure on their side, TEN YEARS AGO : D

Could have saved loads

Perfect example of what happens when you divorce political reality from the military situation. You come up with solutions that might make sense militarily but are totally hair-brained in reality.

[Oracle]

Follow his train of thought. Observe.

What you are suggesting is instead of India raising numerous mountain divisions, strike corps and playing catch up with China in the border infrastructure race we should have just bombed the infrastructure on their side, TEN YEARS AGO : D

Could have saved loads

Yep, we should have bombed Chinese infrastructure development in Tibet starting 20 years back. Heck, we should have helped the Tibetans when the PLA started a a genocide on them. Past is always colourful in perspective.

India was always an in-ward looking power, one that is satisfied living just above the poverty line, and has this mental alignment that all of our neighbours are friends. It has cost us land, money, embarrassment and what not. Instead of giving the world a 5th gen aircraft or an advanced artillery, we gave them Yoga and Ayurveda. Americans & others who come here take up Yoga for a month, and other bullshit, then take it back to their respective countries, we didn't do jack. Soft power should be backed by hard military power.

The Colonel said unless India submits to American leadership, of which DE gave a rebuttal. I would like to add some more. We've had this strategic autonomy built in our FP since independence, good or bad, I don't know. I wish we had powerful allies, and we had the Soviets during the Cold War upto an extent. Almost got nuked. The thing is, we should have let market forces determine the price of things (667medic is correct here) here, opened up our economy to foreign players, and with taxes earned built up our infrastructure and bought defence equipments. We'd have been at par with China today. Not doing too bad either. Colonel, our strategic autonomy is the reason why America sees us as a reluctant power in South-East Asia, arming us, and wants us to take some load off them. American police can't be everywhere, all the time. Only time will tell, whether India rises up to the challenge.

[Oracle]

Solidarity : )

‘India’s Rama takes on China’s dragon’: HK, Taiwan netizens support India | The Week | Jun 17 2020

[ATTACH]48759[/ATTACH]

Great, it's my wallpaper now.

[Officer of Engineers]

What you are suggesting is instead of India raising numerous mountain divisions, strike corps and playing catch up with China in the border infrastructure race we should have just bombed the infrastructure on their side, TEN YEARS AGO : D

Could have saved loads

Start a war over a bunch of worthless rocks? That is just as ludicrous. You're just turning a pissing contest into a full blown war with exactly the same results. You advance to any meaningful depth and your own LOCs will collapse while theirs have shorten and being interior. You will have to retreat just as the Chinese did in 1962.

I also remind you that during the Cold War, the PLA was stationed 100 miles back from the Sino-Soviet border. In short, for over 15 years, the Chinese practically gave the USSR 100 miles into her territory. What is going on today with the Russo-Sino border? It's peaceful and the lines are agreed to with zero confrontation. The Russians gained zero Chinese territory.

Chinese actions today DOES NOT cement Chinese control of Indian territory.

Therefore, my point IS there are military answers other than a pissing contest ... and they do not include a hot war.

How do you do that? Military action is always initiated with political objectives in mind. Including the current situation and the June 15 incident masterminded by Gen Zhao Zongqi if reports are to be believed, had a political objective rather than military.

Let me rephrase my question. What is the point of doing that? Political objectives and realities cannot be wished away in the real world. You can analyse the situation after removing those but that is merely an academic exercise.

Perfect example of what happens when you divorce political reality from the military situation. You come up with solutions that might make sense militarily but are totally hair-brained in reality.

I absolutely agree. My point is NOT to start a war but the Chinese annoying encroachment is tolerable and in fact preferred ... if you do your own prep work to trap and to destroy the encroachment. If the Chinese wants to head butt you, they have to extend their neck. You don't have to head butt back nor chop their neck. But for Pete sakes, sharpen your damned axe.

[Officer of Engineers]

The Colonel said unless India submits to American leadership, of which DE gave a rebuttal.

Wasn't much of a rebuttal. The US will sell weapons to India but that would not include Tech Transfers. The Pakistanis had the F-16s for over a decade and the best they came up with was a suped up MiG-21 (JF-17). Whatever weapons India will buy from the US, India will not be starting their own assembly lines.

BTW, how is the RAFALE doing?

[Oracle]

Wasn't much of a rebuttal. The US will sell weapons to India but that would not include Tech Transfers. The Pakistanis had the F-16s for over a decade and the best they came up with was a suped up MiG-21 (JF-17). Whatever weapons India will buy from the US, India will not be starting their own assembly lines.

F-16 was on offer, entire production line to move to India. But I get your point, why would the US part with technology that cost 100s of billions of dollars and years of research.

BTW, how is the RAFALE doing?

4 delivered. 32 more to go.

Russia is being nudged to deliver the S-400 a little earlier. We all know the delivery timelines of the Russians, don't we?

[Officer of Engineers]

Heck, we should have helped the Tibetans when the PLA started a a genocide on them. Past is always colourful in perspective.

I've missed this part. You did ... or rather India turned a blind eye to what was happening from her own soil. The CIA funded the Dali Lama to launch an insurrection in the 1960s. The CIA was not impressed on where the Dali Lama spent their money.

What's more, it was native Tibetan Red Guards who have done most of the GPCR destruction in Tibet. Mao won the War of the Gods against the DL. If you want a winner today, it's APPLE (Made In China).

You cannot help people who do not want to help themselves.

[667medic]

New developments at PP14, looks like a MG position.

[kuku]

I've missed this part. You did ... or rather India turned a blind eye to what was happening from her own soil. The CIA funded the Dali Lama to launch an insurrection in the 1960s. The CIA was not impressed on where the Dali Lama spent their money.
What's more, it was native Tibetan Red Guards who have done most of the GPCR destruction in Tibet. Mao won the War of the Gods against the DL. If you want a winner today, it's APPLE (Made In China).
You cannot help people who do not want to help themselves.

The Dalai Lama was a 12-year-old boy back then. (you mean the previous one?)
Just because we have Kashmiri Muslims who fight Kashmiri Rebels doesn't mean that the sentiment in the valley is pro India.
India maintained very high levels of Tibetan Paramilitary forces until quite recently. Several Tibetans came from Tibet got trained and went back.

The more i look at all of this mess up north in the Pakistan-India-China-etc etc area, the more it looks like everybody is the same....

[kuku]

New developments at PP14, looks like a MG position.

Sir, That looks like they are already in India.

[kuku]

Great, it's my wallpaper now.

Considering our only friends in the subcontinent have the thunder dragon on their flag, I would be very careful with these types of graphics.