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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • We would be lucky if our antiship missiles and nukes work when we need them (forget arming Vietnam, Taiwan, etc. ).
    Given the Chinese position on Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir, however do need to start recognizing Tibet as a nation under occupation and Taiwan as the real Chinese government.
    Or at least call the Dalai Lama for a dinner with the president, or have the PM give an hour long speech in Arunachal Pradesh, that really makes the PRC angry for some reason.

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    • India plays into China’s hands if we lament 1962 or criticise Modi govt and military | The Print | Jun 22 2020

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      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        And turning BRIC into BRIS? Does he actually thinks that South African gold can actually replace Chinese funds? China is the economic powerhouse with BRIC. Without China, BRIC might as well be BROKE. Out of the four country, only China has the money and the infrastructure to invest and spend. South Africa doesn't even come close.
        China's economy is 3x the size the remaining BRICS countries combined. Note that BRICS was just a Goldman Sachs marketing ploy. I first heard about it from a senior Goldman guy right about the time it was being bounced around. In reality, it's China and the also-rans.

        Ultimately, to hold back the Chinese behemoth without American support, India will have to do what it has always feared - align with all of China's neighbors. Being Switzerland is an option only if there are bigger powers around you that will pick up the slack. Japan is an eunuch. South Korea can't decide whether or not it wants to resume its past existence as a Chinese province in all but name. Vietnam is basically a non-factor, thanks to a moribund economy resulting from almost 50 years of Communist rule. Basically, if Uncle Sam bows out, India needs to play offshore balancer, with conventional forces, much in the way that the UK did for many centuries vis-a-vis the continental powers. That means possibly formal alliance commitments and tripwire forces.

        The problem? Money. Expeditionary forces are expensive. Not just the troops and equipment, but the personnel and equipment necessary to keep them fed and otherwise resupplied, and defend supply convoys. Given the constraints on defense spending increases due to its relative poverty, India needs to squeeze two pounds of crap into a one pound bag.

        Then there's also the fact that the leaders of some of the countries in the region (including Rodrigo Duterte, Hun Sen and Bounnhang Vorachith) don't seem averse to becoming provincial governors in an expanded China, based on the way they prostrate themselves to Chinese interests. If the US does in fact bow out, India will either sit back and pray, or attempt to fill the vacuum with replacement alliances. But the problem with any alliance is each player wants all the benefits and none of the costs. That's essentially what Uncle Sam has been dealing with since the end of WWII. Going forward, we'll see how Pax Indica fares, if USS Pax Americana sails homeward across the Pacific.
        Last edited by Mithridates; 23 Jun 20,, 00:43.

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          That's what the buildup looks like.

          Listen to Nitin for more. This one's good : )

          With ‘Him Vijay’ & Mountain Strike Corps, India can alter the way China border is managed | The Print | Oct 09 2019

          This idea of mountain strike corps is definitely the answer to these repeated incursions. Right now we are in reactive mode but with a MSC ready it means they get on the back foot. The article does not make clear how ready or when the strike corps will be ready.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 20,, 07:14.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            [ATTACH]48754[/ATTACH]

            That's what the buildup looks like.

            Listen to Nitin for more. This one's good : )

            With ‘Him Vijay’ & Mountain Strike Corps, India can alter the way China border is managed | The Print | Oct 09 2019

            This idea of mountain strike corps is definitely the answer to these repeated incursions. Right now we are in reactive mode but with a MSC ready it means they get on the back foot. The article does not make clear how ready or when the strike corps will be ready.
            ^ When India has the money, and the Government thinks it should spend some on defence.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              So, line up some good old artillery on them. We've made tremendous advances in military science for a reason.
              There's no gain.

              First, if PLA command those heights, they choke our supply routes.
              Second, we can hit them with artillery and try to re-occupy those heights.
              Third, they can hit our artillery, with their artillery. And I am not even talking about fighter jets.

              Isn't it better if we control those heights from day 1? It's our land after all.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                China ordered attack on Indian troops in Galwan River Valley: US Intel

                Ouch! How sh!t backfired.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  They're quoting this article from US News. Here's a snippet that didn't appear in the TOI article.

                  Analysts say it's clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place.

                  The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention "defeat" and "humiliation" when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops.

                  Zhao, who fought with the PLA during its brief but devastating war with Vietnam in 1979, believes Chinese generals mismanaged that conflict, according to the U.S. assessment. He was also involved in the Doklam standoff in 2017 along a different part of the China-India border, which ended when Indian troops forcibly pushed back Chinese forces before both countries agreed to a mutual withdrawal.

                  The U.S. has remained largely quiet about the latest incident – likely reflecting a belief within the Trump administration that India and its vast economic resources are already increasingly turning to the U.S. for support.
                  This below bit i want to hghlight.

                  Zhao, who has overseen prior standoffs with India, has previously expressed concerns that China must not appear weak to avoid exploitation by the United States and its allies, including in New Delhi, the source says, and saw the faceoff last week as a way to "teach India a lesson."
                  I don't understand this thinking. How does an ambush surprise attack like this teach anybody a lesson ?

                  Was the idea to show this is how difficult it will be to dislodge their forces who have encroached. Maybe this tactic might work with a smaller power but see, even then i think it would fail.

                  What it shows is they think India is less than that. In that case India passed this test.

                  For Kargil the order was vacate the intruders. That means do whatever it takes to achieve the objective.

                  People are quite exasperated over an incident that did not need to happen.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 20,, 17:19.

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                  • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    There's no gain.

                    First, if PLA command those heights, they choke our supply routes.
                    Second, we can hit them with artillery and try to re-occupy those heights.
                    Third, they can hit our artillery, with their artillery. And I am not even talking about fighter jets.

                    Isn't it better if we control those heights from day 1? It's our land after all.
                    Let's look at this from a MILITARY and NOT a political perspective. So they command the heights. What does that gain them? A bunch of rocks that is hard to defend, impossible to advance, easily choked at the lower points, men and material sitting them doing nothing but freezing and thawing throughout the year, things that are hard on men and machine alike.

                    2ndly, in that terrain, reverse slope is perfect protection against enemy artillery ... for both sides. But the men manning those FOPs? They are going to be damned miserable. Their only solace is that the Indians would happily obliged to bury them with blast up rubble, sparing their families of funeral expenses.

                    Seriously, if this was my command, I'd be thinking how do I get more of them into the area. How do I cut them off so that they can freeze and starve. It's a frigging natural death trap.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Jun 20,, 17:36.
                    Chimo

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                    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      Let's look at this from a MILITARY and NOT a political perspective. So they command the heights. What does that gain them? A bunch of rocks that is hard to defend, impossible to advance, easily choked at the lower points, men and material sitting them doing nothing but freezing and thawing throughout the year, things that are hard on men and machine alike.

                      2ndly, in that terrain, reverse slope is perfect protection against enemy artillery ... for both sides. But the men manning those FOPs? They are going to be damned miserable. Their only solace is that the Indians would happily obliged to bury them with blast up rubble, sparing their families of funeral expenses.

                      Seriously, if this was my command, I'd be thinking how do I get more of them into the area. How do I cut them off so that they can freeze and starve. It's a frigging natural death trap.
                      This is our lot on the Siachen glacier. So should we vacate those positions and let the Paks or Chinese occupy them ?

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                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        This is our lot on the Siachen glacier. So should we vacate those positions and let the Paks or Chinese occupy them ?
                        I would but then, that is a military decision. I want the Pakistanis and the Chinese to waste men and material in a place of not strategic importance, that can be easily cut off and destroyed. In fact, I would want them to build up those places as much as they can. The more they have up there, the more I can destroy ... much more easily than they can build.

                        That being said, I also realize that this is a political matter and that it matters more to a capital to hold the a line no matter how many men and machines are at risk.
                        Chimo

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                        • Apologies if this was posted earlier, I couldn't find it in the thread. Haven't found a more detailed account of the Jun 15 incident elsewhere.

                          3 separate brawls, 'outsider' Chinese troops & more: Most detailed account of the brutal June 15 Galwan battle

                          The context is well known. Ten days prior, Lieutenant General-level talks had taken place and disengagement between both sides had begun at Patrol Point 14, since both had mobilised very close to the Line of Actual Control.

                          A Chinese observation post, which had been set up at the vertex of the bend in the Galwan River was proven, during talks, to be on the Indian side of the LAC, and an agreement had been reached to remove it. A few days after talks the post was dismantled by the Chinese. Commanding Officer of the 16 Bihar infantry battalion controlling the area Colonel B Santosh Babu even held talks with a counterpart Chinese officer on the day after the Chinese dismantled the camp.

                          But on June 14, the camp unexpectedly re-emerged overnight.

                          At around 5pm on June 15, while the sun was still very much up, Colonel Babu decided to personally lead a team to the camp. Having spoken just a few days prior with the other side, the Commanding Officer is said to have wondered whether there had been a mistake. While young officers and jawans were raring to remove the Chinese post themselves, Colonel Babu, known to be a highly sober, cool-headed officer who had in a previous stint also served as a company commander in the area, decided to personally go.

                          In normal course, a Company Commander (Major rank) would probably have been sent to check. But Colonel Babu decided not to leave it to 'youngsters' in the unit. It is important to remember here that tempers were not up.

                          The young officers and jawans were simply motivated by the prospect of a task in a narrow river valley that has seen nearly no tactical disputes of any kind -- and where troops on either side have actually been quite friendly.

                          At 7pm, Colonel Babu along with a team of about 35 men, including two Majors, proceeded on foot to the post. The mood in the team was not one of belligerence, but rather of inquiry. When they reached the Chinese camp, the first thing the Indian team noticed was that the Chinese troops didn't seem familiar -- they weren't the PLA troops normally deployed in the area.

                          The men of 16 Bihar had built familiarity with the Chinese unit, and had expected to run into troops and officers they already knew. The fresh faces was the first surprise. It has been assessed during a debrief that the 'new' Chinese troops at the offending post were from a pool freshly diverted from a PLA exercise in Tibet in the second half of May.

                          These 'new' Chinese troops were immediately belligerent once the Indian team arrived. When Colonel Babu opened the conversation, asking why the post had been re-erected, a Chinese soldier stepped up and pushed the Indian Colonel backwards hard, with expletives in the Chinese language.

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                          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            I would but then, that is a military decision. I want the Pakistanis and the Chinese to waste men and material in a place of not strategic importance, that can be easily cut off and destroyed. In fact, I would want them to build up those places as much as they can. The more they have up there, the more I can destroy ... much more easily than they can build.

                            That being said, I also realize that this is a political matter and that it matters more to a capital to hold the a line no matter how many men and machines are at risk.
                            You said to think military.

                            So they take up posts in the mountains. Next summer they move the line forward and again the year after and so on.

                            After a few years they have gained a fair bit of territory. If they pick the posts carefully they can render large tracts indefensible.

                            The strategic aspect here is it allows a connection between Pakistan & China to be fortified. They start building up loads of infrastructure.

                            Your line of thinking is what transpired in the SCS. They set up base on islands.

                            Since FONOPS continue as usual those fortified islands means nothing.

                            With high posts in the mountains they can prevent our patrols from doing FONOPS.

                            To so as you suggest is cooperating with their nibbling strategy.

                            Now at some point we can do as you say, attack them and reclaim the lot to prove the point.

                            How willing will they now be to repeat it again : )

                            I am ignoring that we unilaterally declared war on two countries.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 20,, 18:49.

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                            • Solidarity : )

                              ‘India’s Rama takes on China’s dragon’: HK, Taiwan netizens support India | The Week | Jun 17 2020

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                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                You said to think military.

                                So they take up posts in the mountains. Next summer they move the line forward and again the year after and so on.

                                After a few years they have gained a fair bit of territory. If they pick the posts carefully they can render large tracts indefensible.
                                So what? The entire area is indefensible. It's an exercise in futility. You want to stop them? Man your own friggin machine gun nests. Get your engineers to plant and maintain minefields. Freeze and starve your men and machines more than they do.

                                Or you can man the choke points and let them freeze and starve.

                                Look. In 1962 with over half of year of prep work, the Chinese still collapsed their LOCs with zero help from the Indian Army. I have news for you. The prep work ain't any better. Machines drink more fuel than they did in 1962. Men still need 2000 calories a day just to live. And today's weapons spend more ammunition than they did in 1962.

                                Hit hard. Hit fast. And keep on hitting until the enemy is spent. The first two are doable. The last one still isn't no matter how long it has been from 1962.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Jun 20,, 19:45.
                                Chimo

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